Spin training

[Sam Rutherford]

It's been 15 years since I last did any spin training.

As I understand it, the Maule is very difficult to spin, and very easy to recover.

Two questions:

1. Am I right in my assumptions?
2. Do you guys get out in a decathlon or similar every so often to get back up to speed or not?

I fly almost exclusively my Maule.

Thanks for your views/ideas.

Sam.

[a64pilot]

If I feel the need, I have a C-140. Strange you should mention it because my intent is spin refresher training tomorrow during my BFR.
I'm REAL sure you're wrong about the Maule. I'm pretty sure it's slow to recover in a spin. I'm pretty sure that is what keeps it out of the utility catagory. I'm real sure several things have been done, to no avail to help it recover more quickly.
Almost always aircraft that will spin easy, are easy to recover. Easy in, easy out.
If you feel the need, I wouldn't do it in a Maule.

[Maulehigh]

Hi Sam,

I used to fly Advanced level aerobatic competitions and would practice different iterations of upright and inverted spins (including full power recoveries, but that’s digressing) on each flight. However, since giving up, I very rarely spin and certainly not in aircraft not cleared for intentional spinning i.e. Maules (you should have a placard on your panel).

It’s more useful to practice incipient spins and recovery. This I believe you can do in a Maule and is more likely to save your life – if you enter a developed spin at low altitude, say turning final, it’s too late.

Now I fly a Maule, I don’t anticipate continuing spin practice.

Regards

[Duane]

I would not recommend spinning a Maule. Years ago, we tried to get an MX-7-180 cirtificated for utility catagory. after many attempts at different configurations ( larger rudder, vg's on the tail etc) we never could get it to recover in an acceptable manner. Once into a fully developed spin. it just doesnt want to recover very well.. Do you really want to become a test pilot?

[Sam Rutherford]

Perhaps my post was unclear! I have no intention of spinning my Maule!

I was wondering about the value of doing an hour or so of spins in a Decathlon.

Thoughts?

Sam.

[Duane]

as far as spin training in a suitable aircraft, besides being fun as hell, yes... I would highly recommend it. As a former flight instructor in gliders, all my students were required to take some spin training in the post solo part of their training. Not so much to be able to perform a spin, but to be able to recognize the begining of such and take corrective action. Far more time was spent on incipient spins and cross controlled stalls. Then after all that we demonstrated full spins and spiral dives.

btw.. 14 turns in a grob 102 will get you from 11,000ft to 3,000 in a really big hurry..

[a64pilot]

Fun?
I still feel sick to my stomach, but I guess I'm older and more "tame" than many of you people.
I went out with a CFII and did spins today as part of my BFR in my C-140. Can't really say I see the value in it. I did it because the last time was 20 or so years ago, and I intend to get my CFI. I can safely say that I didn't like it any more now than I did then.
I guess maybe it reinforces that at very slow speeds, high angle of attack that ailerons are useless and in fact can do more harm than good, or that maybe no one can recover from a spin at low altitude?
Everbody should go out in a 62 yr. old airplane and do some violent manuevers

[Maulehigh]

Hi Sam,

I'm of the opinion that unless the flight profile includes a probability of spinning, i.e. low speed orbits or aerobatics, spin training serves no real benefit in increasing pilot proficiency or ability. As said earlier and reiterated by Duane, incipient spin training is far more beneficial.

However, if you want to perform spins for the sheer fun of it, get proper instruction in a highly capable aircraft, that doesn’t take too long to regain altitude, learn different kinds of spins and enjoy yourself. Cross-over spins (transition from inverted to upright or visa versa) really screw up your orientation.

Regards

[Kirk]

Hi Sam,

It’s more useful to practice incipient spins and recovery. This I believe you can do in a Maule and is more likely to save your life – if you enter a developed spin at low altitude, say turning final, it’s too late.
Regards

I fully agree that hashing the Maule around at a safe altitude, getting the feel of it is far more useful. Really opens your eyes to the capability of the airplane. You really would have to be severely cross controlling the airplane to get a Maule to spin.

The typical scenario for stall/spin accidents are low level i:e: "moose stalls" or base to final turns. If it happens that low, you are probably toast.

I witnessed the crash at Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome this summer. A replica Nieuport fighter in a mock dogfight spun in from what I'd estimate to be about 200' AGL. It only took 1 1/2 turns to impact.

Very sad and very sobering. I doubt the Maule will recover from a developed spin in less than 1 1/2 turns.

AVOID AVOID AVOID is the key and be proficient enough to recognize an incipient stall.

I've always enjoyed spins in an aerobatic aircraft though. Besides being a lot of fun, acro really tunes your instincts and ability to control an aircraft, no matter what attitude it ends up in.

Kirk

[albury]

I agree -- AVOID AVOID AVOID!

[flyer]

Practicing spinning is like practicing crashing. The idea is not to do either.

flyer

[Jet-A]

I have to agree with the gang here. I am a CFII and TW Instructor. Spins in a Maule are "No Bueno". Without VGs, my Maule tried to spin on me nearly everytime I was just doing power on/off stalls and slow flight. Since then I have installed VGs as a safety margin.

Spins in a C-140... Now THAT's F-U-N, fun! They go fast and furious and recover quickly. Just a joy. So are the Aerobats & Decathalons.

CHEERS!

[RobBurson]

I have a question. Milehigh, you were referring to a incipient spins. Is that different than an incipient stall?

When I got training in my M7 the CFI had me start with power on incipient stalls. Plane shakes, rudder peddles vibrate, nose down and recover.

Then next he had me hold the power on stall until it was complete. I do an acceptable job of keeping balanced on the rudder, ailerons neutral. Every time the M7 would break HARD! left and start rotating left. It would take a quarter turn to the left before I could get it to recover.

Is this an incipient spin?

Thanks...Rob

On a side note, I know a Maule driver who had done some basic aerobatic training and barrel rolled his Maule. He told me that was a very big mistake.

[Lowflybye]

On a side note, I know a Maule driver who had done some basic aerobatic training and barrel rolled his Maule. He told me that was a very big mistake.

I have this friend who has rolled an MX7-180 on more than one occasion and it was no big deal. I don't think he would ever want to spin it, but it rolls about like a Citabria.

I routinely spin, roll, loop, hammerhead, etc the Stearman and love to do it. I think every pilot should have some basic aerobatic training or at least unusual attitude recovery. It just makes you a better pilot when you can keep or regain control of the airplane in any attitude without panic.

There are 3 forms of training that I think every pilot should get as all 3 willl make you a much better pilot and could save your life...Instrument training, Unusual attitude / aerobatic training, and tailwheel training. OK so the tailwheel may not save your life, but it will sure make you a better pilot.

[Maulehigh]

Rob,

Sorry for the delay replying, I've been away.

Yes, incipient spins are different to incipient stalls.

An incipient spin is the transition into a spin post stall, but prior to it being fully developed. From what you describe, your second example, where the aircraft drops a wing and starts to rotate, is the incipient spin.

Regards