technical drawings, pics of firewall forward for M4 or M5

[TXGR]

I am trying to find some drawings of the firewall and engine mount for the TCM IO-360C in the M4 and M5. In lieu of the drawings, the distance from the firewall to the prop flange would be helpful.

I am also looking for some pics that show the engine mount clearly.

If anybody has some links or files they could share, I'd appreciate it.

My goal is to replace the Franklin 165 in my Stinson with a TCM IO-360-C. I know other similar conversions used an M4 Exhaust, so I need to see how the IO-360 is setup in the M4 and M5.

Thanks,
Brian
N637C

[aero101]

Contact Brian in parts dept at Maule Air, Inc... Email would probably work best or telephone call backed up by email... There may be a small charge depending on prints you need.

[TXGR]

Thanks Jim, I'll call him.

Are there any picture galleries here, websites showing a restore or engine swap, or another place where I can find some pics with the cowling removed?

Even the ads for Maules don't have pics of the engine.

Thanks,
Brian
N637C

[jmtgt]

PM me your email. I have a few pics some place of my old M5-210 with out the cowl. I will find them and email them to you.

[maules.com]

The Maule Parts Book has drawn diagrams which my help though measurements are not incorporated.

[aero101]

There are a few of the Continentals on the 108 up in Canada, and also an STC available for conversion... About halfway down page on this link is not only IO360 info, but contact info for individuals running this setup. Makes a good hot rod of the 108? It's a pretty straight forward conversion that I almost did on my project Stinson several years ago. I've seen before and after floatplane performance and makes a substantial difference. And as smooth as the Franklin!!

http://www.hangar9aeroworks.com/Stinson ... gines.html

[TXGR]

I'll tried looking for a parts catalog, but I think I'll have call Maule.

Hangar9Aeroworks is a great site. I've tried contacting some of the owners with the conversion. Dave Miller is possibly the owner of the floatplane you mentioned - he is very helpful.

There are no more kits for that STC. There is not enough interest to justify creating more kits. I spoke with the STC holder and offered to buy just the license and paperwork. He said he can't sell just the paperwork because he'd still be liable. ...not sure I understand that, but...

There is another STC held in Alaska, and I'm trying to contact him.

There were also some one off STCs done for this conversion. That is where I'll most likely end up now. I understand this process is much tougher now.

My goal is to eventually put on floats, but the engine is first.

BTW, I'm curious what is a typical BEW and MTOW for a Maule M4/M5 210C?

Thanks,
Brian

[aero101]

There is also some STC's for the lycoming O-360 which would have some advantages as parts availability much better, eng's easier to find and probably cheaper as well, wider selection of props, lighter, etc, etc?? And you can always go to the fuel injected 200HP angle valve motor like in the Mooney's. I've got a customer with the O-470 STC done, but doesn't carry enough fuel to go anywhere and very nose heavy... It does get right with the program performance wise though... Which STC does Dave Miller use? If you could get copy of paper package / prints without STC owner support, it would make it easier to maybe get field approval or even 1 time STC? I do believe that the new guidance for FAA inspectors requires STC on engine changes... Good Luck

[jmtgt]

Sent you two emails with about eight photos. Hope those help.

[TXGR]

John, thanks much for the pics. They are exactly what I was looking for in terms of perspective.

-------------

There are usable STCs for the Lycoming O-360, IO-360, and Continental O-470. Each option has their pros and cons.

I decided against the Lycoming O-360 because there no increase in speed, efficiency is about the same as the Franklin 165, but there is a big increase in vibration and noise. The Lyc IO-360 is more efficient, but there are still a lot of complaints about vibration. Both of these installs require modifying the cowling significantly.

The Continental O-470 is just too heavy. I read some even had to put balast in the tail. The power is good, but -- as you say -- range drops. Efficiency for its size is not great.

There is a SB to allow a Franklin 180 and an STC for the Franklin 220 (with questions about whether this includes PZL made Franklin 220). There are pros to both, but the lack of parts is the biggest issue with the Franklin 165.

The above are the only ones with STCs available for purchase/license.

There are two general STCs for the TCM IO-360. Tyee Aero is the one Dave Miller used. He is happy with the engine, but not happy with the kit. 12 years later there is still an exhaust issue that was never resolved and parts promised in the kit, but never delivered. In any case, the owner won't produce any more kits.

The second STC I am trying to track down near Merrill Field in Alaska. They don't market the STC openly, but I'll see what they will sell me once I reach them.

There are also at least two one-off STCs for the TCM IO-360. Your idea for getting the paperwork is exactly what I am working on now. I'd rather just buy an STC, but this is my working plan assuming no STC is available.

The other engine I really liked was the Lyc O-540, despite the size, it is actually more efficient than the O-470 (depending how you measure it) and has the advantage of mogas and no fuel injection. It is also lighter than the O-470 by about 40lbs for the engine models I'd use. Still, that is heavy and the displacement eats into range. 235HP is borderline overkill for what I want.

There are no STCs at all for the Lyc O-540 (a guy in Canada is working on one), but ~30 Stinson's have them (!!). If I am going to go the route of one-off STC (huge red tape), I going to get what I really want, the TCM IO-360.

Thanks for the input and the ideas.

V/r
Brian
N637C

[YELLOWMAULE]

Contact the Alsworth family in Port Alsworth, AK. They have several of these on floats. To my knowledge, they are the authorities on this engine/airframe combo. That and good people.
You might consider going Experimental if for no other reason to be abe to do something better than the Maule exhaust.

[TXGR]

YellowMaule, I sent you a PM. Thanks.

[aero101]

Actually "D" Alsworth is the Stinson guy and he's holed up somewhere on the Kenai Peninsula (I think he's in Soldotna), you can contact his brother John, owner of Alaska Aircraft Eng's, in ANC... I'm sure he'll be glad to help out with a contact number for his brother, as I did about a week ago for a windshield? Good luck in your endeaver!!

[TXGR]

Thanks. I've now spoken to 3 Alsworths, and I am hoping to speak to a 4th.

I called John, and he gave me the contact number for Wayne. Wayne actually did the work on two Stinsons, and he gave me lots of good information. Then he referred me to Glen, who is working on a multiple STC for it.

I am guess "D" is a nickname. All I know is they all had 907 area codes, but I've not had the honor and privilege to visit your great state, and so I have no idea where the area codes change or even where things are in relation to Anchorage.

If I ever get the engine upgraded, flying to Alaska sounds like a great idea.

Thanks,
Brian
N637C

[Andy Young]

907 covers the whole state; not enough people to need another area code. The Alsworths are one of the notable families in Alaska, particularly in aviation circles. It's just one big small town. You should definitely come up.

Andy