Crankcase replacement or engine swap on 1964 M4 210?

THE MACHINIST · Post by **THE MACHINIST** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:28 pm

I am looking at a 1964 M4 210 with 1700 TT and 400 SMOH that had a crankcase develop a crack. Engine was removed case sent out for repair deemed not repairable at some point shop went belly up now plane has no crankcase. Also because case has been split it needs a VAR crank. So me being an amateur at all this I am confused by my options. In talking with Byron at Maule he said if I want to replace the engine and stay with the IO360 Continental I can only use the A or D model. I have also talked with some other people that say that if I find a crankcase and it is the heavier case my motor designation could be called an IO360AB and that would be acceptable.

I would like this M4 as I am cash challenged and the person that has it will trade me straight out for a light sport plane I have but I don't want to get into a plane that I can't get parts for or afford to get back in the air or not be certified due to the odd concoction I come up with for the motor.

Prices I have found for a used VAR crank are $2500-$3100 and yellow tagged and $4200-4900 for new VAR crankshaft $2800-3200 for a Yellow Tagged crankcase.

There is also a 0 time TSIO360 but I don't know the suffix yet on fleabay that is pretty reasonable as far as 0 time motors go but I don't know if the TSIO has any differences other than the turbo of course meaning could I remove it change injection over to what I have left over from the engine that came with this plane. or because it was once a turbo always a turbo

I know this is a lot of incoherent babbling but I was just hoping to leave you as confused as I am.

Thanks for your time and any thoughts

Jamie

aero101 · Post by **aero101** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:18 pm

There are many differences in the TSIO from the IO such as compression ratios, fuel injection system, etc, etc... Unless you installed the turbo'd engine complete, there would be a great deal of change overs required to convert to an IO. With a little paperwork done at the FSDO, suspect that most of the different model IO 360's could be installed on a field approval, but strictly speaking without doing additional paperwork, you are limited to the A or D models that are on the TCDS... The later model IO 360's had improved crankshafts, better cooling, etc, etc, etc. If you take a look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet on the engine, it will explain the differences and the later models are definitely improved. Good luck hunting!

THE MACHINIST · Post by **THE MACHINIST** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:32 pm

So I will probably scratch that TSIO depending on the suffix and the price It wouldn't be a big deal to swap pistons or jugs to get the compression right but I doubt the paper work could be made right without a lot of hassle.

Thank you for your time.

If anyone has any leads on the parts I am looking for it would be most appreciated.

RT · Post by RT » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:50 pm

Anouther thing you have to watch out for is the counterweights on the crankshaft are different so I don't think the FAA would ever let you make an IO360A or D out of a TSIO.

THE MACHINIST · Post by **THE MACHINIST** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:25 am

Holy Crap!

Ok so the TSIO is definitely out.

That is why I posted the questions here to get expert answers.

So we are back to looking for a case (and what cases are acceptable because there are wide crank cases out there and narrow or standard width as well) and a VAR crank or a good deal on an A or D motor.

Speaking of cases I assume the D is a heavier case? But does that require running a wider journal crank and or rods?

Then what is the AB designation I have seen out there.

Thank you again for your time and thoughts

Jamie

MikeW · Post by **MikeW** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:51 pm

For what its worth, I have a M4 210C that had a crack in the case back in 94. The engine was torn down, a new case installed and everything put back together. This was done by an engine shop not me so they had to find the case. So it's been almost 17 years now and I've been real happy with the engine.

MikeW

RT · Post by RT » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:55 pm

I'm not an expert but I don't think the D case is any heavier than the A. I think The AB or anything with the B added on the end is a heavier case and crank.

THE MACHINIST · Post by **THE MACHINIST** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:05 pm

Mike I hope I have the same luck with this project as you. That is encouraging.

RT

I do not know that is what I am trying to find out definitively so that I can make a good decision and not waste money.

Thanks

Jamie

MauleWacko · Post by **MauleWacko** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:13 am

51598Rob · Post by **51598Rob** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:14 am

Replace your Cont. 210 with a deltahawk diesel, and get a STC for us to follow....Please

THE MACHINIST · Post by **THE MACHINIST** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:24 am

That is why I am doing as much research as possible before I commit to this project I don't want something I will never get to fly.

As far as the diesel conversion If I had the money for that project I would probably be putting my order in for a turbine Sherpa instead.

RT · Post by RT » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:26 pm

Jamie
As I said I'm not an expert but I've been down a simmilar road with a maule project, Trying to find an engine that would work for me. So I am trying to share what I learned. I had a D in my plane and found a G model if I remember right. I thought it would be easy enough to change the G to a D with the parts I had. That is when I found out about the crankshaft weights being different. I'm glad I found that out before I bought the engine. You know about the VAR crankshaft AD, but there is a couple others that can cost you some considerable cash also as I found out the hard way. There is an AD on the connecting rods that if the beam is too narrow you have to replace them. There is an AD on the oil pump drive that will cost you some money too. There is 2 different widths of oil pump gears and if your unlucky like me and have the narrow ones they cost about 3 times as much. I thought I could change the accessory case so I could use the wider gears but couldn't find one that would work.
I don't have all the exact answers you looking for ,but I am trying to point you in the right direction.
If you could find a mid time A or D and do a top overhaul on it that might be your best bet. They are hard to find though.

THE MACHINIST · Post by **THE MACHINIST** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:29 am

Rt

Thank you again for taking the time to bring me up to speed on this swap. I had heard about the beam width issue but do not know what the correct minimum width is supposed to be. Supposedly the rods were measured and within spec but I would like to know the specs so I could do it myself. I did not know about the pump gears. Are there some casting #'s on the gears or a measurement of some sort that I can do?

I would be all for finding a mid time engine that would for sure save me a lot of hassle.

I did find a D model engine in Indonesia from a Cessna T-41D the guy also has 2 other IO360 KB's but wants to sell the lot as a whole and the Log books were published by Indonesian Air Force and the logs will be translated but, I don't speak Indonesian so I how would I know what they say. and if they are genuine. Probably the only way I would do this is if I could find a neutral 3rd party to hold the funds till engines arrived and logs were verified. Sounds like a hell of a lot of work to save some scratch.

Nothing is ever easy.

Thanks again

Jamie

RT · Post by RT » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:13 pm

Jamie
In order to be a major overhaul you have to replace all the parts listed.
http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SB97-6B.pdf
Look at item 5 for con rod width and reference to the service bulletin.
Look at item 32 for oil pump gear reference. I think if you go to the SB it will show you a picture of the new style gear.
Take a long hard look at all the parts you MUST replace because they end up costing you more than you might think.
Some places like western skyways have what they call 100% parts pull that lists all the parts needed for a major ovehaul. You could get a price of what the parts cost without having to have all the part numbers yourself. It wont have the oil pump gears or con rods on it though.
I'm not trying to discourage you, just letting you know what it might cost before you make a decision. I found out the hard way.

THE MACHINIST · Post by **THE MACHINIST** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:29 pm

WOW!

That is a lot of parts to have to change out.
I looked at western skyways and didn't see the link you described for the parts pull. I talked to the current owner and he said in the logs he found where the connecting rods were replaced during the major 400 hours ago. So that is one less thing but this is still a big whack for sure.

Did you end up with a 0 time motor or service limits motor? Who did it for you and are you happy with it after having it for awhile?

Thank you very much for going out of the way to help me with my decision

Jamie

Crankcase replacement or engine swap on 1964 M4 210?

Crankcase replacement or engine swap on 1964 M4 210?

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