Approach and Landing Speed (MT7-235)

[RobH]

Per the Maule website, VS0 = 40 mph = 34.75 => 35 knots. (I'm going to try to check this out next time I fly)

I've read and heard that the appropriate speed for landing an aircraft is usually about 1.3 VS0 => 35*1.3 = 45.5=> 46 knots.

I also remember watching the King Practical Risk Management video on Takeoffs and Landings a long time ago when they suggested that most landing accidents were due to landing too fast and were really pushing landing slower and at 1.3VS0.

46 knots seems pretty slow, but obviously the slower the landing the easier on the airplane, gear, more control, etc. And of of course the shorter the landing roll.

With that in mind, will anyone share their numbers with me regarding final approach speeds and landing speeds? Particularly in a tri-gear. I'm told Ray Maule teaches trimmed at 55 knots.

I think I'm going too fast (65knots) on final. I'm presuming slower airspeed more throttle to arrest sink rate?

Jeremy talked about diving a little bit at the last few hundred feet to pick up some energy for the flair. Still trying to get that straight in my mind as it seems that it just adds airspeed that you're trying to do without... ie, you may approach at 45, drop your nose to dive and now you're at 55knots pretty quickly, negating the nice slow approach. I must be thinking wrong...

Comments please?

Thanks.

-r

[mjasumback]

Um, Rob, per the POH VSO is 43 knots
1.3*VSO is 56kts

Mike

[RobH]

I suppose you're gonna tell me you trust the POH more than the Maule website...

Interestingly the website lists the same 40 mph as the stall speed for full flaps for the M7-235B/C models -- I wonder if that is with the mysterious and exotic "5th" notch of flaps (48 degrees) that the MT7 doesn't come with... I'm sure some taildragger folks out there could enlighten me on that....

Nevertheless the actual stall speed (for the current weight (& balance I suppose)) is a definitely something that can be empirically determined (at a few thousand feet AGL) thus I will. Is it then reasonable to attempt landing at 1.3 times that ...?

-rh

p.s. Mike if I wanted to hear from you I'd have picked up the phone! What the heck are you doing surfing the MP forum this time of night (you could ask the same of me!)-- don't you have work to do or something...?

[marymac]

You can either push the nose forward momentarily about 50 feet or so above the ground or add a little power for the flare. Be ready with power in case you mis-judge the amount or timing of nose-forward. When executed properly, you will have a short landing with a nice "plop" landing. Immediately drop the flaps when you touch down to eliminate the lift.

This is slower and steeper with 48 deg. of flaps.

[mjasumback]

"p.s. Mike if I wanted to hear from you I'd have picked up the phone! What the heck are you doing surfing the MP forum this time of night (you could ask the same of me!)-- don't you have work to do or something...? "

Jes' tryin to git edimicated

Mike

[Kirk]

1.3 VSO is what the FAA uses as the design approach speed and most airplanes (including the Maule) fly very well at that.

An airplane can certainly be flown slower than that. 1.2 VSO is a commonly FAA approved approach speed for short field landings.

In my case: M5-235C per the AFM, VSO is 52 knots/ 60 MPH, with the 20/40 flap ratchet and 2500 lb gross. Make sure the numbers in your AFM fit the way your airplane is equipped for flap settings and gross weight.

So for mine: 1.3 VSO= 68 knots/78 MPH.
1.2 VSO= 63 knots/72 MPH

Those speeds work great for me. The 1.2 puts you just behind the power curve and handles well.

Kirk

[LT4247]

65 knots is about right....give or take a knot or 2.

I think I'm going too fast (65knots) on final.

-r

[a64pilot]

If it's a little fast, you float a little before landing, or if in a short field, you go around. A little too slow and if your not careful you hit hard and bust something. Be careful getting slow. I don't think my airspeed indicator is accurate enough at those speeds / angle of attack to be worth much. If you listen, she will tell you what she's fixing to do before she does it. I go by feel on short final, honestly I have no idea what the airspeed says, I'm looking outside. The last notch of flaps do very little to decrease stall speed, they primarily increase drag allowing for a steeper angle of descent and as such are great for when you have to land in a short field that has tall trees on the approach end.
That's my story anyhow. I suggest you cover up the airspeed indicator and fly her by feel for a while, or at least ignore it. Whatever your comfortable with and what feels right to you, is right for you.
Hitting the "numbers" is good only for grading purposes on a check ride, without numbers, there are no standards to be held to, but leave the numbers at the traffic pattern.

[210TC]

I agree, airspeed indicators are nice for praticing and learning among other things. However, if you want to become a "bushpilot" you need to learn to land by the seat of your pants. Just to many variables.

[CAPT MIKE]

EVERY MONTH OR SO, TRY THIS...DO YOUR REGULAR VSO VS1 STALL STUFF, THEN CRANK THE TRIM ALL THE WAY BACK, AT ALTITUDE OF COURSE, HOLD BACK PRESSURE ON ELEVATOR, TRY A FEW POWER SETTINGS THAT CAUSE THE AIRPLANE TO 'HANG ON THE EDGE OF A STALL'...FEEL WHAT YOUR MACHINE IS COMMUNICATING TO YOU, DO SOME TURNS, GENTLE (UP TO 15 < OF BANK) OF COURSE, THEN INCLUDE THE AIRSPEED INDICATOR WITH THE TRAFFIC SCAN, GLANCE AT INCLINOMETER (BALL IN CENTER)...THIS WILL, EXCEPT FOR CROSS AND GUST WIND CONDITIONS, GIVE YOU GREAT CONFIDENCE IN HOW YOUR MACINE IS TELLING YOU WHAT LOW SPEED IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE SUFFICIENTLY GREAT AND SHORT LANDINGS...YOU WILL KNOW WHEN ALL IS 'COMFORTABLE', AND CAN GET OUT OF 'TIGHT' SPOT WITH SMALL POWER APPLICATIONS...TELL US ALL WHAT HAPPENS...MFM

[a64pilot]

Your going to have a couple of people that tell you to not crank the trim all of the way back. I'm one of them Try this, with the trim cranked all of the way back, add full power as in a go-around. I don't like the forces you have to put on the yoke to keep the nose down. I roll the trim maybe half way back at most.
Jeremy will tell you that you lose elevator effectiveness with the trim all of the way back. Running out of elevator on short final is a common occurrence in a Maule, I don't want to do anything that reduces elevator effectiveness.
Plus, God forbid that your practicing could lead to the dreaded stall / spin. Yes your at plenty of altitude, but I wonder how all of that trim may affect recovery?

[Kirk]

I also agree with the altitude practice scenario with the exception of the aft trim. Your first full power go around with much of any nose up trim will pop your eyes!

Do a search for landing trim or something and you'll find some great threads on that.

Kirk

[CAPT MIKE]

a64pilot AND kirk:

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS/OBSERVATIONS/INPUTS.

I AM AN APOSTLE OF ONE OF AVIATION'S COMMANDMENTS, "THOU SHALT KNOW HOW YOUR AIRCRAFT HANDLES, AND REACTS UNDER ALL PILOT-INDUCED INPUTS".

MAY ALL OF US GO FORTH, BEND NO METAL, TEAR NO FABRIC...MFM

[andy]

I think the best indication of the right approach airspeed is whether or not you experience any float on touchdown. If so, then it's too fast. Weight, flap setting, wind and runway surface are factors, too. If you're too slow, the airplane will drop fast and you'll have to add power before touchdown to avoid a hard landing. Adding power makes it harder to land short. In my MX-7-180 60 mph (52 kts) at average weight with 48 degree flaps eliminates float.

Andy

[TomD]

Over the years I have suspected my airspeed indicator has been lying to me.

I have heard approach speeds that just don't sound like what I have been doing over the last 16 years in my plane.

I finally took the opportunity to figure it out.

Seems like 80 mph is actually 70 mph. Flew one leg at 80 indicated then flew the reciprocal at the same indicated. Average GPS speed 70 mph and some small change.

Seems like I have been flying approaches all this time as people have been suggesting, just did not know it.

Plane felt right and landed as it is supposed to. Maybe being married to the gauges is not such a great idea.

TD