Quite a few questions about a M4 I'm looking at

[RobertF]

Please forgive me if this is in the wrong place

Ok I'm not quite ready to buy a plane just yet but a M4 220 has sort of fallen into my lap so I figured I'd toss it out there.Its a bit of a long story but my good friend who is currently playing in the sandbox mentioned he got a email about a M4 his dad used to work on that needs to be sold asap.His dad was a AP IA and a stinson guy at heart but he also had his hand on a few maules(including my dads old M4 210).They have records dating back close to 20 years on the plane but the last time they saw it was 2003 for a spring annual and float install.Communication is limited with my friend due to him fixing govt birds at the moment and his father passed in 04.Most of the info I have so far is from his memory and the rest is limited to a short conversation with the owner.Since I have access I'll comb through his fathers paperwork when I get out there.

The good:
recovered winter of 99 due to wood rot,wood was replaced with metal from what he remembers,also it had M5 wings with ext range tanks installed at the time

Has edo 2440 floats that have the strut upgrade

has federal wheel skis,he wasn't sure if it was a field approval or stc'd

Field approved tundra tires think 29's but not totaly sure

Comes with a custom aluminum bunk style trailer to pull from the lake and store or launch from land after float install.

For the 10 years I've known of the plane its always been inside a pole barn/hanger

The bad.........Been sitting in the hanger for 4 years due to the franklin loosing oil pressure on take off,according to the owner he kept it fire walled long enough to get her above the trees and turned around before it seized.Plane forced landed across the short side of the lake,only damage visible is the wing tip,But owner still has M4 wings.

I ran the N number but there is no history of the event.Owner states he just let her drift in and then towed it home with his fishing boat and parked it.His exact words where something like no point crying to the feds over some spilled oil

now for the questions

Is this incident going to cause me problems with the feds and getting it airworthy again?

I've searched some but cant seem to find a replacement franklin,short of buying another plane to cannibalize.I've searched and searched on here and the consensus to swaps is buy another plane.If bought cheap enough can something be swapped in.....IO360 I know its a little less hp but came in same airframe?? Don't forget my friend has his AP and IA

will the field approvals go with the plane,or will they be out as it was out of annual for so long?

As the thing sits what is it worth?The asking price seems like a good deal to me even if just to use it for parts


Thanks in advance

[Hottshot]

If he wings are off update to the M5 wings and go, as long as everything is sound there should be no issue getting a C of A and a new mill in the front as long as the price is rite do what you can.

[RobBurson]

If you get it for the right price. Fix the M5 wing tip. The 220 Frank is a hot rod. I seem to remember reading here, there are 1 or 2 people who specialize in them. I would vote to have the 220 rebuilt.

As for what it is worth. Hard to say. We know the floats and skis and 29s are not cheap. If the panel is old that doesn't help.

My guess is, and it is a uneducated GUESS!

10K

[YELLOWMAULE]

I'd argue this a little. The floats w/ rigging are worth as much as $15k (I've been shopping ), the skis, $3-5k, the engine essentially $0 and the fuselage has some value. The wings could be worth a couple grand. Avionics next to nothing.
The guy who did my pre-buy in OK. many years ago. I'll have to try find his name. Out of Tulsa if I remember right. Is or at least was THE Franklin guy in the Country. Parts are out there, just gotta look real hard. Worth it though, so's the plane. Where in the Country are you?

[crbnunit]

There has been a totaled M5 on evilbay lately. The auction has ended for now but it cropps up now and again. It was a 210 but if you wanted the conversion parts, that might be a cheap source. They said it was totaled in the first flight after an extensive, ground up restoration. Sad.

[RobertF]

I'm in Bulgaria(merchant marines) right now but I'll be flying back to the US monday the 1st to visit family then to go look at it.Well I hope too but the airlines may not be willing with all the strikes going on over here.

He is asking in the 20-25k range,might be a little high but considering the other planes I've looked at it(all round tails) seems reasonable with the gear it has.

Like I said before I'm not quite ready for a plane as I have my friends stinson 108-3 to fly when home.But storage of this won't be a big issue either.

All in all i prefer the older round tails and it's what I learned to fly in.Having seen the bill for my dads recover job(15 years ago) due to the slats rotting,I'll gladly trade engine issues vs needing a new fabric job.

No matter what I buy it'll have liability insurance only as i have yet to find a underwriter to offer me hull coverage I can afford or am willing to pay.This puts my budget in the 35-40k$ range.A little more if I can stretch it out over some time........in other words spent in ways the wife doesnt notice it as much

[aero101]

I'd recommend a place down in Texas on the Franklin, and overhauling it would be cheapest, vs highest performance... You can also convert it to an O-360 lycoming, IO-360 Conti which is hard to find used and servicable... Maule Air has paperwork to convert to both, my option would be the Lycoming if you were to get rid of the Franklin... There are still lots of 220 parts out there if you know where to look and you can still actually buy a New version... I'm currently on the road until middle of next week, but if you want to PM me, I would be glad to send you the numbers for the people in Texas to whom I refer. Going to the M5 wings wouldn't be a bad investment either if you're going to fly floats, although the 220 with a longer 82" prop doesn't do too bad! If fabric is holding up well, and decent panel, that price not too far out of line... I'd be very selective on who I had overhaul the Franklin as they are a different animal!! I just bought one with 75hrs since overhaul, had crank in 2 pieces, cam broken in 2, illegal pistons, illegal valves, etc, etc, and was built by a reputable (??) shop specializing (??) in Franklin Engines... Had a bunch of automotive and helicopter parts used at overhaul with no legal documentation. Personally, I think the Franklin is an excellent engine, but kind of like the Maule in that they need to be maintained by someone knows the product well...

[gear]

I'd recommend a place down in Texas on the Franklin, and overhauling it would be cheapest, vs highest performance... You can also convert it to an O-360 lycoming, IO-360 Conti which is hard to find used and servicable... Maule Air has paperwork to convert to both, my option would be the Lycoming if you were to get rid of the Franklin... There are still lots of 220 parts out there if you know where to look and you can still actually buy a New version... I'm currently on the road until middle of next week, but if you want to PM me, I would be glad to send you the numbers for the people in Texas to whom I refer. Going to the M5 wings wouldn't be a bad investment either if you're going to fly floats, although the 220 with a longer 82" prop doesn't do too bad! If fabric is holding up well, and decent panel, that price not too far out of line... I'd be very selective on who I had overhaul the Franklin as they are a different animal!! I just bought one with 75hrs since overhaul, had crank in 2 pieces, cam broken in 2, illegal pistons, illegal valves, etc, etc, and was built by a reputable (??) shop specializing (??) in Franklin Engines... Had a bunch of automotive and helicopter parts used at overhaul with no legal documentation. Personally, I think the Franklin is an excellent engine, but kind of like the Maule in that they need to be maintained by someone knows the product well...

Jim,

Forgive me if I amout of touch on the Franklin - just thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

Before I bought my Maule, I looked at Stinsons for about 3-4 months. I researched them quite a bit. There were a few I looked at with Franklin 220's. I spent an awful lot of time researching this engine. Everyone / everything I read said the engine was tops. Good power, reliable, light, etc. The only issue I ran into was parts. They seemed almost non-existant. I spoke with the lady in Texas that specialized in them - she seemed to be running into the same issues. They were no longer being supported and very scarce (for the 220). I spoke with the people in Poland that bought Franklin, and they were planning on carrying on with the production of these motors and parts but after apparently a few years of them promising this, they still did not get this off the ground. They told me they could not promise if, or when, they would have the new 220 ready.

My only recomemndation on this is to look into it further, if you are planning on keeping this engine.

Anyone know if there is any updates on Franklin? My information is about a year old.

garth

[gear]

Just tried Franklin's PZL (polish company that bought the rights to the motor) website - it seems to have been taken down.

Franklin engines in Texas still shows rebuild kits on her site but not sure if those are complete certified kits or not.

garth

[aero101]

The 150 and 165HP Franklin parts base is getting very low, especially crankshafts, but 220 HP still not in too bad shape. I've also heard that there is a company in New Zealand that can build you a brand new certified Franklin, not sure of price, but have heard this from several sources? I'm on the road right now and don't have access to my work computer, but believe it's Sue and Phil in Texas, not in too bad shape regarding 220 parts. The Franklin Engine Co in Colorado has been closed, for sale, and never was very reliable for many many years. I have never been able to get them to answer phone, return mssg's, answer email, etc,etc...

[maules.com]

Susan Prall. A-1 service. susan@franklinparts.com. 903 626 5115 TX.
Greg Lucas C.G.Lucas Co. cglucas@cox.net 405 268 3925 OK.

[RobertF]

thanks for the links and info..........funny there is one for sale on here,but sadly if I do end up with the plane I wont have enough left for the engine and the divorce that will soon follow

as far as PZL goes,as far as I know PZL bought franlkin and then later PZL was bought by Pratt and Whitney.It was P&W that killed the production as from what I gathered it was not what they where interested in when they acquired PZL.

[xwildcat]

Greg Lucas is indeed back in the Franklin business. I talked to him last week. He rebuilt a cylinder for me and he knows his stuff. He says he can get everything except cranks and camshafts. No problem to get cyls or to overhaul... according to him.

[gear]

thanks for the links and info..........funny there is one for sale on here,but sadly if I do end up with the plane I wont have enough left for the engine and the divorce that will soon follow

as far as PZL goes,as far as I know PZL bought franlkin and then later PZL was bought by Pratt and Whitney.It was P&W that killed the production as from what I gathered it was not what they where interested in when they acquired PZL.

Not positive, but I thought P&W bought Franklin, then PZL bought Franklin from them.

garth

[aero101]

Franklin Parts / Susan contact Toll free (866) 731-1037 or email susan@franklinparts.com .....

Franklin Rebuilds, cranks, etc, Technical assistance / Phil Davis contact 615-477-5136 or email davisaviation.inc@gmail.com

Prospectively accepting orders for the New Franklin 220 HP Engine!
Contact us and get on the list! http://www.franklinengineco.com/index.html

I've had very good luck with these folks and not sure who owns the Type Certificate now, but believe that Lycoming sold it after purchasing PZL. Sue or Phil would probably know current owner and status?