Learning how to assess an airplane

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J. Bartlett
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Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

Hey all -

I’m in talks with a seller about an M-7 down in TX. I have a little reservation cause according to the FAA, it’s been flipped over twice, ground looped once, and I’ve learned it’s been taxied into a hanger wall where it damaged the wing ribs and elevator.

Plane is listed for sale now having all maintenance done to bring it back to airworthy status and I’m told it’s practically “factory new” Is this normal for airplane purchase or should I run for the hills?

http://aviationdb.net/aviationdb/Aircra ... age#SUBMIT

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Mog
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Mog »

Mine was flipped and ground looped. Those are only the ones I know of. Most maules seem to have had their share of scuffles with the ground once or twice.

Where is the airplane? Maybe someone here can give it a look for you.

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

Advertised out of Denton, TX. So sounds like it’s pretty common, so long as repairs were adequately executed and logged? Not a deal breaker, but definitely want to get a good pre purchase inspection?

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Mog »

Lots of us around Denton. I’m sure someone knows the owner well. Send an email to info@lonestarmaules.com. Andrew will blast out an email and see who knows the owner and help you with some details. Worst case I could run out there and give you an initial feel for it’s condition.

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by andy »

Many Maules have some kind of damage history: ground loop, nose-over, etc. However, this one seems to have more than its share. I would be most concerned about frame tubing damage that is difficult to detect without removing the fabric.
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

Thanks all, for the responses! Such an awesome community to help out in such force! I will reach out

Two additional questions:

1) Just got the gross/empty weight numbers back: 2500 lbs gross, 1685 empty - useful load 814.

This feels a little low to me for an airplane with 3 rows of seats. Guess I'm still in initial stages of understanding AK bush flying, but anyone out there able to speak as to whether or not that useful load would suffice to take 3-4 dudes hunting with gear? I understand multiple trips will have to be made on the way out if an animal is taken, but certainly don't want to start out with multiple trips!

2) Whats the best way to determine whether or not the price for an airplane is fair, given its history? Is this just a "gut feel" assessment, or is the only way really to spend the money on a professional airplane appraiser?

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andy
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by andy »

A new M-7-235B with oleo gear has an empty weight of 1605 lbs and a useful load of 895 lbs. A M-7-235C with spring aluminum gear has an empty weight of 1653 lbs and a useful load of 847 lbs. Options like extended HD main gear and bushwheels typically add weight. Without a complete list of installed options, it's hard to say why this airplane is heavier. Is it a M-7-235B or M-7-235C?

Some Maule owners, like me, prefer the oleo gear to the spring aluminum gear since the oleos damp out more of the shock of landing and rough terrain and reduce landing bounces in addition to weighing 48 lbs less. The spring aluminum gear is wider and bit more stable on landing.

You will probably want to start out with full main fuel so that's 40 x 6 = 240 lbs off your useful load leaving about 574 lbs for pilot, passengers and cargo. Subtract a 200 lb pilot and you've got 374 lbs left for passengers and cargo. Practically speaking that gives you capacity for one 200 lb passenger and some cargo. You might be able to add another passenger but you wouldn't be able to carry much cargo. The airplane's performance at 2500 lb max gross weight won't be awesome with only a 235 hp engine and a high density altitude will make things worse.
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

Andy:

Super helpful breakdown - greatly appreciated. The model I am looking at is a 235C. I was not thinking that fuel played into the useful load of the airplane, though it should have registered since I have had to adjust fuel load on multiple Cessna flights I have taken... Ive seen an MX-7 for sale recently too that advertises a 1000 lb useful load with a 180 HP engine. How can that be possible?

Your breakdown pushes me back into thinking that I really do want an M-9 for the additional carrying capacity, but it seems next to impossible to find one for sale from my perspective. Can't afford to build one new, so that leaves me between a rock and a hard place... Is it literally just a matter of staying patient and keeping an eye on advertisements until such time one becomes available, or do I switch gears to a different type?

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by MauleWacko »

:shock:
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

All good stuff - guess all the planes I've damaged through the Air Force, I shouldn't be surprised that small airplanes run into the same sort of thing... just feels a lot more daunting when its my checkbook that will bridge the gap to its airworthiness...

The plane that Im looking at is listed at $139K and is a 1998 model. One of the cheaper M-7's I've seen out there, but still don't necessarily have a good gauge for whether or not that is a good deal or inflated based on the market.

Any idea what an M-9 typically goes for and where I could find one? Im really getting hung up on the lower useful load of the M-7...

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

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:roll:
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

Ive looked into Cessna 180/185's. End of the day, not having manufacturer support, cost of MX, and ability to find parts pushed me away from Cessna.
I looked into Bearhawk 4-Place. End of the day, I think I'd be happy with one, but with the new FAA ruling that no commercial operations can be run out of an experimental aircraft also pushed me back into the Maule category.

I've read up on Isaac's profile and operation, and it sounds like he just has a newer model that was built to spec. Seems lighter (1570 empty with 35 inch bushwheels). But even he says he takes just two passengers and gear... so maybe that gives me my answer, that I just need to accept a lower payload for the type of flying I am hoping to do with my family. I also just read a post from Isaac saying that if off-airport flying is the goal (which it is for me), he'd avoid the M-9 because they are too heavy and the gear is too stiff...

End of the day, 90% of the time it will be my wife and kids, who are WAY less than the standard 200 lb passenger, which will give me more options. Was more thinking about the one-off occasions I'd be able to bring a friend/parent with me on any of these adventures in addition to my family. It's a little difficult when I am the only one who flies, so bringing everyone along that I want to share this with is proving to be the challenge.

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by asa »

I saw that M7 listed. Seems like a fair enough deal.

As for useful load and the "alaska bush flying" you want to do, hauling you plus 3-4 hunters and their gear probs won't happen. I can tell you this because this is my job, on both floats and wheels in alaska. Hunters are heavy, if I were to stereotype. Hunting gear is heavy. Hunters' ego's alone normally fill the cabin of a Maule. That's a 2-load group almost no matter what, even at sea level, for anywhere deemed remote, much less "bush".

Fishermen on the other hand? You could probably take you plus 3 fly fishermen for a day trip. If I were to stereotype, fishermen aren't as heavy. Their gear isn't as heavy. They usually don't return bloody with hundreds of pounds of meat in bags that don't seal well. Also they tip better. (This is an attempt at humor)

All of this being said, I also bet you could reduce the weight of that M7 by nearly 100lbs if hunting trips were your primary mission and you NEEDED to haul more. Easy 30lbs from the panel, easy 30lbs from interior, composite prop - expensive 30 lbs, lightweight battery, boom 20lbs, carbon fiber cowling, carbon fiber floor, yada yada. All of this costs money and time.

But at the end of the day, do you really think the primary use of this airplane is going to be hauling you plus 3-4 hunters out into the alaska bush? If that's only an occasional thing, making two trips or better yet making friends with another pilot who hunts is much cheaper than buying a plane that can suitably fit 4 hunters and gear.

The useful load of the 180hp is higher because the plane weighs less. Useful load does not reflect performance.

Edit: You made your last post while I was typing this. I think you're figuring it out and that a Maule would suit you well. Good luck and have fun!

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by andy »

I think you'd be best off with a M-7-235B with oleos. Gives you a bit more useful load and better performance with less weight. I don't often get 4 adults in my MX-7-180 plus full fuel even though it has a 1046 lb useful load. The performance of the 180 hp with the shorter 30'10" wing at max gross weight is too marginal for my taste so I usually limit the max weight to 2400 lbs. I like taking off with full mains but many Maules, including mine, won't take a full 40 gallons in the mains without siphoning some of it out the vent tubes so I plan for 38 gallons in the mains. If I need the extra fuel, I'll put some in the aux tanks rather than filling the mains to the top. The rear sling seat in a MX-7 is too cramped for two 200 lb adults and a tall person may have to bend their neck to avoid hitting the top of their head on the ceiling. The M-7 has a higher ceiling in back but the cabin width is about the same as the MX-7 series.

It will be very hard to find a M-9 for resale and it will likely cost a fortune unless there's something wrong with it. You could look for a M-7-260 but there aren't many out there and the useful load is less than the M-7-235B.

I like the Cessna 185F and Cessna 180K that I've flown but I think Maules are tougher and better for off-airport operations. Welded 3/4" chrome/moly steel tubing can take more punishment than riveted monocoque aluminum. Cessna prices are ridiculous for a good 185 or 180 and the parts costs are outrageous. Maule parts prices are way, way better. Maules have a lot better cargo door access than either the 185 or 180, which makes them better for hunting and fishing. You can remove the rear sling seat very easily with the quick release kit and put a lot of stuff in the back that you'd struggle to get into a 185 or 180 even though they could carry the weight. You can buy a very nice newer Maule for much less than the price of a beat up 40 year old 185. Insurance is one factor that favors Cessnas over Maules because insurance companies put tail dragger Maules in their own risk pool due to the relatively high number of claims. Since the pool is a lot smaller and the claim rate is higher, the premiums are higher for Maules. My theory is that inexperienced Maule owners are more likely to try things they shouldn't since the airplane is so capable. Fortunately, many of the claims are for non-fatal, but still expensive accidents.
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Andy Young »

Lots of excellent point here. One thing that I haven’t seen discussed is the assumption of full fuel. Few commercial operations in Alaska start out with full fuel tanks. Most of us look at the mission length, then fuel for that plus 30-60 minutes, depending on weather, and the likelihood of having to spend extra time in the air to get somewhere, or get home. If you’re flying hunters out to a place 30 minutes away, in decent weather, that’s 1.5 hours fuel (round trip plus reserve). For an IO-540 that’s 18 gallons, so a bit less weight than full mains at 40 gallons. I do the same for my recreational flying, especially if I’m going into someplace shorter than 500’.

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