M-4 Rebuild Project

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THEAirplanegirl
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M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by THEAirplanegirl »

Sorry in advance as this is going to be a LONG post! and thank you to whoever takes the time to read it and respond!

My husband and I are currently working on an certified M-4 project (serial #56 N4713T) that we hope to have up & flying by April/May of 2023. A quick little backstory is we acquired/purchased this Maule (not in flying condition) from an individual who had started the rebuild process but eventually lost the time to complete it and ultimately wanted it to go to someone that would get her flying again.

With that, it came with new wing components... meaning they both still have to be skinned and painted. I believe they are still just standard M-4 wings... I know I should know this...but its been a couple of years even for us since we got this plane... There is apart of me thats hoping the guy bought M-5 wings but I am unsure how to figure that exactly out at this moment. New struts. The engine was completely overhauled and ready to be installed (we haven't mounted it yet)... Its just a continental 0-300. For where we live we plan to later upgrade it to a 180 hp. We are not doing any big high altitude bush flying so ultimately we think that engine would be the best fit for the performance we want and our mission with the plane. Not to mention fuel consumption as we don't have any aux tanks. We just purchased and received all the brand new avionics... We are installing a complete glass panel with Dynon SkyView HDX screens and Avidyne audio panel & radios.

I should mention that all the work is being completed in house. My father is an A&P and aircraft builder... however, he doesn't have a ton of experience or a wealth of knowledge with Maule modifications... So I have been trying to learn everything I can which ultimately led me to this page. :D

I would love your guys input on the best modifications we can do to it to get the most out of it and the best ways to go about it. So far the things high on our list are:

1. Patrol Doors- Is it worth buying the kit from Maule or just complete ourselves?
2. Vortex generators & gap seals for horizontal/vertical stabilizer
3. Exchanging front bench seat to bucket seats on rails- does anyone have some knowledge on this?... I know you can buy the rail kit from Maule but we are having the hardest time finding seats... Initially my plan was to find some old Maule bucket seats and reupholster them ourselves... but its looking like I might just have to have Maule build me seats because I cant find any.
4. Sling seat- we haven't exactly figured out what we want to do with the back seat but I saw there is an option for sling seats now... But I am unsure if this can be completed on our M-4 with NO extended cargo door. Any other suggestions are appreciated!
5. Brakes on co-pilot side- Should I just buy new toe-braking pedals from Maule?
6.Alaskan BW extended gear- I would LOVE to put different gear on this plane. I don't particular love the look of the current original gear. Ive heard really good things about this gear and I am thinking 26" or 29" size tires.
7. Acme Aero struts- we currently have these on our cub and LOVE them. I know they are not certified for Maules and with talking to Acme they don't plan on it. But they said their Black-ops would work with the gross weight of the M-4 and said they have had people get field approvals... which I also do not know whats all involved with that and if its worth it or just stick with the oleo struts that come with the Alaskan gear.
8. New floor boards with 1/4 plywood- The floor boards that are currently with the plane are WAY thicker than they need to be.
9. Lightweight interior- Right now all of the aluminum interior panels are upholstered with the original (not flattering) red interior. I know some of the panels we will lose when we turn the doors into patrol doors. But what have you guys done/used to upgrade the interior? We are planning on trying to do most of it ourselves. I was planning on just recovering the existing aluminum panelling with some light weight fabric.
10. AeroLED lights- all of the exterior lighting we are upgrading to AeroLEDs.
11. CiES fuel senders- Just put my order in for the electronic CiES fuel senders! Super excited about this one.

ANYTHING I MISSED? haha I know there is alot and the mod list is endless, but these are the things we have narrowed down that we want to get done for this rebuild time. Some stuff can be done later down the line. I appreciate any opinions! We want to do this right and really enjoy this plane for years to come!
Thea
M-4 N4713T

Kirk
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by Kirk »

Thea,

Hope you all enjoy bringing new life into the old bird. As far as seats and brake pedals, there are usually some on eBay. Someone in Colorado has a lot of Maule parts but the pricing is very high. Higher than new in some cases. Not sure how open they are to offers, but most their parts have been on there for years.

Rear sling seat might be possible. Call Maule and ask about the quick release kit. Also look up the mod kit index on their web site. If you haven’t gotten the Maule parts CD, do it now. Loads of info on there.

As to the rest, I’m sure others with better information can help.

Kirk

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andy
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by andy »

Patrol doors are hard to do yourself. There is a lot of custom-fit work. I know a couple of Maule owners who learned new cuss words doing them from scratch.

Vortex generators & gap seals are great mods that are well worth the cost and will seriously improve low speed handling and stalls.

Can't comment on front bench seat since I have a MX-7-180 that started life with bucket seats. There might be some available from owners on this forum.

I have ABW standard HD gear and 31" ABW bush wheels. I like the 31" tires but they come along with a lot of drag. A lot of owners like the ABW extended gear and 29" tires for less weight and drag. The extended gear gives you some additional prop tip clearance if you decide to install a longer prop.

I would stick with the Airframes Alaska oleo struts.

Some Maule owners are doing carbon fiber floorboards and side panels to reduce weight. Search this forum and you will find quite a few threads on it. The trade-off is cost.

AeroLED lights are great. I assume that includes an LED landing light. My choice would be an LED landing light (which I have) and an LED taxi light. They have different aiming points and light patterns.

No experience with the CIES fuel senders but others on the forum probably do.

Maule Flight replaced the entire interior and all the glass when they rebuilt my airplane in 2010. I couldn't stand the "bordello red" upholstery and panels. They sealed up air leaks and improved insulation in the process which made cold weather flying much more comfortable.

I installed a JPI EDM800 engine analyzer with all the sensors. It was one of the best investments that I made, especially fuel flow and totalizer.

New style door handles, window latches and fuel selector are good mods to have.

I installed a quick release rear sling seat kit from Maule, which makes getting the rear seat in and out much quicker and easier. The cargo area is huge without the rear seat and I've used the quick release many times.

Rosen sun visors is another good mod. They clamp around the V tubes.

ABW 3224A tail wheel and tail leaf spring if you don't already have a Scott 3200 series tail wheel.

NAS bolts on the landing gear attachment points and oleo struts are very important. Airframes Alaska sells kits.

Cleveland dual-puck brakes with 3/8" rotors and flexible stainless steel brake lines. They're available from Airframes Alaska.

The list can go on and on as you said. Don't get me started on avionics...
Andy
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Jon
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by Jon »

VGs and gap seals: definitely worth it.

Floor boards: I recently replaced my original black carpet over cheapo plywood floorboards with varnished quality plywood (wrote a blog entry about the process if anyone's curious: https://rockgeeks.net/soc/index.php/202 ... oorboards/). The new ones are only 1 pound 2.5 ounces lighter than the old, most likely because the new plywood is way better quality than the original. If the originals hadn't been in such sorry shape, I might not have done it -- it was quite a bit of work for little weight improvement.

Landing lights: If you only have a light in one wing, I recommend installing a second in the other wing, and a wig-wag switch. Really helps with being seen.

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THEAirplanegirl
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by THEAirplanegirl »

Jon wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:12 pm
VGs and gap seals: definitely worth it.

Floor boards: I recently replaced my original black carpet over cheapo plywood floorboards with varnished quality plywood (wrote a blog entry about the process if anyone's curious: https://rockgeeks.net/soc/index.php/202 ... oorboards/). The new ones are only 1 pound 2.5 ounces lighter than the old, most likely because the new plywood is way better quality than the original. If the originals hadn't been in such sorry shape, I might not have done it -- it was quite a bit of work for little weight improvement.

Landing lights: If you only have a light in one wing, I recommend installing a second in the other wing, and a wig-wag switch. Really helps with being seen.
Thank you Jon! Yes thats what we were planning as well.. doing some higher quality plywood. Ive seen the carbon fiber option... still looking into that as well as a possibility! With the lights, we are doing that exact thing... placing lights on both leading edges with the wig-wag option.
Thea
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THEAirplanegirl
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by THEAirplanegirl »

andy wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:04 am
Patrol doors are hard to do yourself. There is a lot of custom-fit work. I know a couple of Maule owners who learned new cuss words doing them from scratch.

Vortex generators & gap seals are great mods that are well worth the cost and will seriously improve low speed handling and stalls.

Can't comment on front bench seat since I have a MX-7-180 that started life with bucket seats. There might be some available from owners on this forum.

I have ABW standard HD gear and 31" ABW bush wheels. I like the 31" tires but they come along with a lot of drag. A lot of owners like the ABW extended gear and 29" tires for less weight and drag. The extended gear gives you some additional prop tip clearance if you decide to install a longer prop.

I would stick with the Airframes Alaska oleo struts.

Some Maule owners are doing carbon fiber floorboards and side panels to reduce weight. Search this forum and you will find quite a few threads on it. The trade-off is cost.

AeroLED lights are great. I assume that includes an LED landing light. My choice would be an LED landing light (which I have) and an LED taxi light. They have different aiming points and light patterns.

No experience with the CIES fuel senders but others on the forum probably do.

Maule Flight replaced the entire interior and all the glass when they rebuilt my airplane in 2010. I couldn't stand the "bordello red" upholstery and panels. They sealed up air leaks and improved insulation in the process which made cold weather flying much more comfortable.

I installed a JPI EDM800 engine analyzer with all the sensors. It was one of the best investments that I made, especially fuel flow and totalizer.

New style door handles, window latches and fuel selector are good mods to have.

I installed a quick release rear sling seat kit from Maule, which makes getting the rear seat in and out much quicker and easier. The cargo area is huge without the rear seat and I've used the quick release many times.

Rosen sun visors is another good mod. They clamp around the V tubes.

ABW 3224A tail wheel and tail leaf spring if you don't already have a Scott 3200 series tail wheel.

NAS bolts on the landing gear attachment points and oleo struts are very important. Airframes Alaska sells kits.

Cleveland dual-puck brakes with 3/8" rotors and flexible stainless steel brake lines. They're available from Airframes Alaska.

The list can go on and on as you said. Don't get me started on avionics...
Thank you Andy! haha yes the mod list is endless and thats why were trying to focus in on the main ones for now to get her flying and then later down the road do some more.... I definitely want to look into the new style door handles, window latches, and fuel selector you mentioned. Ultimately, I would love to do the sling seat option. I just need to find out from Maule if that works for my model.... have had an exceptionally hard time getting ahold of them lately. No one picks up the phone and none of my emails have been returned. I think for now we probably will stick with the oleo struts and exchange later. It not extremely important to get her flying. I do believe with the AA extended gear kit, they come with the NAS bolts you speak of. With it only being a 0-300 thats the exact reason why I was looking at the 26s or 29s for tire.. I'm really hoping she still performs decently and not a total dog. I will also look more into the carbon fiber floor boards option... The one thing that we have covered in this project is the panel. That will be its shiny diamond in the rough.
Thea
M-4 N4713T

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THEAirplanegirl
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by THEAirplanegirl »

Kirk wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:28 am
Thea,

Hope you all enjoy bringing new life into the old bird. As far as seats and brake pedals, there are usually some on eBay. Someone in Colorado has a lot of Maule parts but the pricing is very high. Higher than new in some cases. Not sure how open they are to offers, but most their parts have been on there for years.

Rear sling seat might be possible. Call Maule and ask about the quick release kit. Also look up the mod kit index on their web site. If you haven’t gotten the Maule parts CD, do it now. Loads of info on there.

As to the rest, I’m sure others with better information can help.

Kirk
Thank you Kirk! I will look into this ebay person that you speak of. I really do not want to keep the bench seat and pay for that to be recovered. So I really am on the hunt for some bucket seats!
Thea
M-4 N4713T

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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by VA Maule »

If you’re going to re do any of the fabric, the pre colored Oratex fabric is the best option. Used it for a patch(s) (we won’t dwell on good experience gained from that moment of bad judgement :roll: ) on the belly and it’s so much easier and faster than any other fabric process I’ve encountered. Four years and several hundred hours on the more often than not greasy grimy belly and it’s holding fast, edges are tight and not the first sign of lifting .
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gdflys
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by gdflys »

Thea welcome to Maule home base. Glad you found us here. As mentioned on the other platform I'm really looking forward to seeing y'alls Dynon install. I keep waffling back and forth between doing a full Dynon panel myself (A&P/IA) or forking out more money for a Garmin shop to do GI275s and a modest center stack.

Check with asa here. He has some parts spares and may have seats. I know there was a set of M5 seats trying to be sold earlier in the year up in Maine on the Maule Facebook group. Can't remember all the details.

Airframe Alaska also has their new Maule aluminum wing struts so there's another option.

My humble opinion, if you are planning on a future engine swap I'd do it now while everything else is apart otherwise y'all will be doubling or tripling some of the labor involved. I realize the work scope is already huge and a big money drain but you may want to consider reeling in some other areas till later and doing the swap now.

Looking forward to watching your progress.
Greg Delp
1979 M-5-235C
CT
ATP, CFI, A&P/IA

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THEAirplanegirl
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by THEAirplanegirl »

gdflys wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:41 pm
Thea welcome to Maule home base. Glad you found us here. As mentioned on the other platform I'm really looking forward to seeing y'alls Dynon install. I keep waffling back and forth between doing a full Dynon panel myself (A&P/IA) or forking out more money for a Garmin shop to do GI275s and a modest center stack.

Check with asa here. He has some parts spares and may have seats. I know there was a set of M5 seats trying to be sold earlier in the year up in Maine on the Maule Facebook group. Can't remember all the details.

Airframe Alaska also has their new Maule aluminum wing struts so there's another option.

My humble opinion, if you are planning on a future engine swap I'd do it now while everything else is apart otherwise y'all will be doubling or tripling some of the labor involved. I realize the work scope is already huge and a big money drain but you may want to consider reeling in some other areas till later and doing the swap now.

Looking forward to watching your progress.

Greg! I am glad to have found you here too! I have talked with Asa through FB... he's been a big help answering all my annoying questions... I will look on FB as well to see if I can see that old post you mention. I would LOVE to do the upgrade now, but findings parts for any 0-360 is not easy. Plus this engine it came with is 0 time and completely new. We feel as if we should fly that for awhile and then decide later down the line what we want to do with it. After flying the 180 HP cubs for several hundred hours banner towing... I know I eventually want the performance upgrade!
Thea
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Andy Young
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by Andy Young »

My own personal experience with the patroller doors is that it’s quite straightforward to do without a kit. The only thing the kit gives you that isn’t just basic raw materials is the pre-curved side angle pieces. Oh, and a silly little plastic cover for the door bolt that you don’t need anyway. If you have access to a sheet metal shrinker, the curved angles are easy to make yourself. Otherwise, maybe buy just those from Maule, and put the rest together yourself. All the parts in the kit, including the window itself, need to be cut to final size anyway, so…..
Of course, this assumes some basic skills and access to tools, but it sounds like you have a family A&P as a resource. I used a cut-off wheel to cut the holes in the doors, after drilling the corners. Basic sheetmetal techniques.

The AA heavy-duty extended gear is an excellent mod, and doesn’t really slow you down if you make the effort to build and install gear fairings. Those make a world of difference.

The elevator gap seals make a huge difference. Technically, they are not approved for the M-4.

The quick-release sling seat (for the rear) is an excellent upgrade, but requires welding receivers into the airframe. Can be done with fabric on, but much, much easier with it off.

VGs are one of the best mods you can do. Not so much for slower stall speed, but for retaining aircraft control right through the stall. In fact, power-off, it won’t really stall anymore; just mush.

Kydex is a good-looking interior material that is also quite light. It’s really easy to work with also; you can cut it with a good pair of industrial scissors.

I’m fond of the metal belly mod, as it’s great for durability off-airport, and also helps tremendously with access for servicing and inspections. It does add a bit of weight, and it requires a field approval. I have paperwork for that which you are welcome to look at if you ever decide to go that route.

I’m also a big fan of Oratex, if a re-cover is part of your plans.

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drak130
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by drak130 »

Thea,

Welcome to the family! Keep trying Maule on the phone. They are hit or miss on picking up but when you get someone they are very helpful and a tremendous resource.

As far as the rear sling seat goes, I installed the quick release kit last year and still have the original upper brace, so basically the tube that runs in the sleeve on top of the seat back. If you end up going with the sling, it is yours.

Take pictures and post the progress.

Cheers
Tim

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flyusn99
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by flyusn99 »

Thea,
Welcome to the forum! I'm in somewhat a similar situation, I had an M-5 and bought the universal wings and longer chord rudder to upgrade it to an M-6.
To your list:

1. Patroller doors are a must have in my opinion, probably most easy to buy the kit from Maule. They will give you TONS more visibility and are well worth it. Do the 2 in the front and the 2 in the rear. You'll be glad you did.
2. Vortex generators are great on wheels, my flying has shown about 5-7mph slower in a power on slow flight situation. With power at idle they seem to have much less effect due to the loss of prop=wash. in my experience they don't really do anything if you're ever on floats (not that you would be from your post though). The gap seals are also a game changer, in the flare the elevator seals will give you authority for another 5-10mph slower than what you get without them. Also, gap seal on the rudder makes a huge difference. They are all authorized on the M-5, not sure about the M-4 as that's out of my experience range it would be good to get them if you can..
3. I have a set of M-5 front seats with covers in 9/10 shape if you're interested. The M-6 uses different seats so I have no need for them anymore. Give me a call and we can discuss.
4. No experience or opinion
5. Absolutely, can't imagine only having one set of brakes. Also, make sure to get the newer style brakes. The old style had a tab that could (and did) engage the parking brake on one side for several owners. Its a little bit of a shock to land with one side of the brakes locked. Also, double puck brakes would be a solid investment as well.
6. ABW extended gear. I think they look good and they increase your available AOA on landing and take off but I'm of the opinion that when you change a system you change the weak point in that system. Up to you but I'd rather stick with a known quantity than not. Plenty of people love them but I've also seen longeron damage from hard landings that I think might not have been so extensive with stock gear.
7. No experience
8. I'm redoing my floorboards with thin wood as well.
9. I pulled all the aluminum interior and old Naugahyde out and am using carbon fiber. Randy at Carbon Concepts in Wasilla will sell you a kit with whatever you want (including floorboards) you just have to trim his kit to fit. Price is reasonable as well.
10. Aero LEDs are great lights. But they're pretty proud of them cost wise. WAT is coming out with a light called the Duo here in about 2-3weeks. Comparable light output. Its a dual landing and/or taxi light for $400/ea, about half the price of Aero LEDs. You get a 3 pole switch and you can select landing OR taxi lights in the same bulb. Also, a light in each wing is a HUGE improvement.
11. CIES are FANTASTIC! I put a set on my M-5 and was able to tell down fuel load down to .1gallon. I would pair it with a JPI-930, but if you don't want to spend that kind of $$ I'd put a JPI-830 in and pair it with a digital fuel gauge. (assuming you didn't order them as analog senders. If you haven't got a digital gauge and are interested I've got an Aerospace Logic gauge I have no use for now I'd also sell. Additionally, if you want aux tanks I've got a set of those I'm no longer using as the universal wings came with a set installed. And frankly, more fuel is never a bad thing unless you're on fire. But to each their own..

I echo the previous comment about the new door latches as well. They are a HUGE improvement. Also, if the fabric isn't on yet, I would buy a set of the metal stringers, especially the belly but also the sides. Way better than the old wood ones. A partial or full skylight might be nice depending on where you live. If you don't already have a new windshield get the thicker .150 version. Way less likely to crack than the stock .125 windshield. The quick disconnect rear seat would be a plus. Also, make sure you change the seat belt anchor points from male to female. If you can install the new modular instrument panels instead of the old style monolithic panel. The new ones you can remove one side at a time which is a huge help working on things.
You mentioned in your post you were concerned that the previous owner may have bought M-5 wings, no worries, they can go on an M-4, and are a big improvement. The engineering on how the flaps are mounted is much beefier on the M-5.
Hope this helps.

James
907-617-9568

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THEAirplanegirl
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by THEAirplanegirl »

A quick little update:

The M-4 project is trucking along... I was hoping to have her up and going by Oshkosh, but realistically I think it will be later summer. I am in the process of reskinning a flap and almost done with one wing. We have to install the fuel tank, rivet the cover skin, and then she will be off to paint. I have sanded down all the fiberglass parts - wingtips & nose bowl - about to start the process to fix holes with carbon fiber. Once that is done they can be painted as well.

I did a lot of research in my quest to turn my doors into patrol doors. After talking to many & reading all the previous posts on this page, I decided to go with polycarbonate. I was able to find a 'version' called Tuffak-AR, which has both sides hard-coated to add higher abrasion resistance and also provides chemical resistance for long lasting outdoor weathering performance. Best part - I was able to source it locally from a steel & plastics company and it has a 10 year warranty against breakage, yellowing, and hazing. So I guess I will be the test subject to see how it holds up!

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Thea
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Gary Raser
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Re: M-4 Rebuild Project

Post by Gary Raser »

Off topic, I have a damaged right universal wing located near Reading Pa “KRDG” Free to anyone that might some parts or a major rebuild
Garyraser@outlook.com

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