IFR cert and ADSB

[DeltaRomeo]

Looking to get the M5 ready for IFR training. For the M5 to be IFR certifiable, it appears that all it needs is a KI 209 (VOR, LOC, GS) AND another KX 155 with glideslope feature (might could trade mine since it was just overhauled at Bevan Rabell). This should satisfy the IFR MEL requirements and allow ILS approaches.

Add the ADSB caveat. The ADSB will need need a WAAS GPS signal to provide the necessary info for position reporting. If I were to do the ADSB thing (don't really need to since I don't want to go where it is required), having to add a WAAS GPS will give me part of what would be needed to do GPS approaches.

I realize that ILS is a legacy system that, like VOR, may loose future support in preference to GPS. So I consider this trend so that I don't have to buy this stuff all over again. But looking at glass panel stuff (hardware purchase and installation, GPS and update subscriptions, etc) reveals a pretty hefty price tag in the 5 figure range. The subscriptions in ten years would also be another 5 figures. Where does the bleeding stop using GPS?

At least with ILS, once its installed and paid for, thats it until it craters.

[gbarrier]

If you have a KX155 with KI208 (localizer only) it may be a little harder than just adding a KI209. Not all of the KX155 have glideslope receivers built in. In fact, if yours was coupled with a 208 I would almost bet that it doesn't. I removed one like that last month. You may be able to swap your unit for one with glideslope and pick up a 209 since you have the wiring and rack. Unlike the VOR approach, the ILS will be around for a while and you will probably need to demonstrate an ILS approach for your checkride.

IFR non WAAS GPS receivers like the Garmin 430 (not 430W) are quite capable of GPS approaches. There are different minimums for WAAS and non WAAS units. Which GPS receiver do you have?

[DeltaRomeo]

The plane used to have GPS but was removed by a previous owner. I've been using ForeFlight on an iPhone 6+. The last owner had a Garmin 396 and removed it before the sale. I looked at buying a 396 (hardware about $300) but the subscription costs were going to be about $650 annually. I wish there was a resource available that details the hardware AND recurring software costs so one could look at the total cost picture of the available platforms. That would be a lot of research.

Update: The radio does NOT have GS. So the investment escalates.

[gbarrier]

Bummer. Was afraid of that.

That sounds high for GPS subscription and a 396 is not an ifr GPS.

If you could find an older ifr panel mount like a Garmin 300 might help. A GPS does cost to keep current.

[DeltaRomeo]

Just curious, what features does the 396 have that Foreflight does not? I understood that the 396 was not usable for GPS approaches.

[andy]

No portable GPS is approved by the FAA as a primary navigation method for IFR approaches, including an iPad with Foreflight or a 396. Either of them is a great resource to have as a backup and a cross-check. The iPad/Foreflight or any portable GPS also has the advantage of a separate power source in case of total electrical failure in IMC. The iPad/Foreflight combination provides updated navigational information by virtue of the Foreflight subscription, although you have to download the updates when they become available. A separate database update subscription from Garmin is needed to keep the 396 current and it takes more effort to update the 396's navigational database. The 396 is more rugged than the iPad and less prone to thermal shutdown when it gets hot in the cockpit. The iPad/Foreflight system has far more data than the 396, such as: all of the VFR Sectionals, IFR Low Enroute charts and FAA approach plates in the country, plus the AIM, and much more. If you pay the extra annual fees, Foreflight provides georeferenced approach plates and synthetic vision, neither of which are available on the 396.

[VA Maule]

There's a Garmin (plan) 430 for sale on the Vans Air Force site for $ 3250 with the antenna. As gbarrier said this unit will provide all approaches needed it also has a nav.receaver for VOR & ILS all in one compact package.

[gbarrier]

There you go. That will give you everything you need for IFR training. Be sure it comes with the necessary indicator. Think it is a GI 106A. Keep your old KX155 for a second Comm (I don't consider the nav there worth much) and you're all set till 2020. They you'll need another $3,000 to do the ADS-B. Then you're done for a while.

Remember when all you needed was a NavCom and a chart in hand. And I thought a Jepp subscription was expensive back then. I remember getting a call about midnight one night to fly a box from Charlotte to Phoenix in a Navajo. I made two fuel stops instead of one because there was weather in the middle and didn't have IFR charts west of the Mississippi. Did the last leg on a WAC chart I bought at an FBO along the way. I don't even fire up the Champ to go around the block these days without at least a Stratus and an IPad. Sorry about the rambling. Old folks do that.

[DeltaRomeo]

Ramble on! Thats what keep all this from getting too dry!

The software world (thanks to bill gates) has created the eternal bleeding that has worked well for them and has a licensed siphon in our wallets. Its nice to know that once data is managed digitally it can be edited and updated at the stroke of a keyboard instead of creating a whole new document that had to be physically distributed (updates to S/W vs air charts). Since the process is actually easier now, conversely it has become more expensive. It used to be that once you bought something, it was yours. Now, it's merely a rent payment. Since I'm old school, I have an issue with that financial model. If the rest of the world is ok with it, fine for them. I would like an option that will fill the need and once I pay for it, thats it. (enough of my rambling...)

Keep the ideas coming, I'm doing the diligence...

[flyusn99]

DeltaRomeo,
Something else to consider is that if/when you do the ADS-B upgrade whatever ADS-B transponder you choose will REQUIRE a WAAS GPS signal in order to be certified. I was going to go with NavWorx set-up but after the foodfight they're in with the FAA I chose a different route. I elected to go with a Garmin GTX-330 transponder. I got one used on ebay for $990 then Aircraft Spruce will send it in to Garmin to upgrade to the Extended Squib (330 ES) which has ADS-B out (1090) for another $1130. So for $2000 you get most of the solution. I was planning on doing the WAAS upgrading to a 430W anyway so it just made sense to me.
Point is if you do go with a 430 non-WAAS it might have ramifications later if you decide you need to do the ADS-B upgrade....
You're right, they nickel dime you and nothing is cheap anymore.

James

[TomD]

+1 with James

I had a NavWorx on order and was going to use current Transponder and GNS-430W.

At the end of the day forked out an additional $500 for a FreeFlight system which is "in the mail". The transponder signal comes from hard wired RS-232 vs induction pickup like on the NavWorx, otherwise pretty much same concept. Also part of ForeFlight "Connect" program among others so looks as if I am switching from Garmin Pilot app since Garmin has pretty much locked everyone out of connecting to their app.

Cheers.

[gbarrier]

I have a 430WAAS feeding a King KT74 but there are other ways. I had the 430 but had to buy the KT74. Thought it was a good idea to replace an aging transponder. At the end of the day I would have been just as well off to have bought the Stratus transponder and not worried whether I had a WAAS 430 or not.

[Joe Crecente]

I have a GTX-327 and a GNC-250XL in my MX7. I am planning on putting in a GTX-345 with WAAS and was thinking of a GTR-225A for a second radio. But wonder if I should go with the GNC-255A instead of the GTR-225A. How close would I be to IFR capable?

Joe

[andy]

The internal WAAS GPS module in the GTX 345 is meant to provide a WAAS position source for ADS-B Out, not for IFR GPS approaches. I don't think the GTX 345 software supports that capability even if you had a compatible display. Here's a link to Garmin's list of compatible displays for the GTX 345 https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/140949#additional. You would only get FIS-B weather and TIS-B traffic on the display. The GTX 345 provides Bluetooth wireless output capability to one other Bluetooth device - for example, an iPad running ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot. You could see weather and traffic on the iPad with this arrangement but it wouldn't give you legal IFR capability.

For precision IFR approach capability your only choice would be ILS with the GNC 255A. You could do non-precision VOR/VOR-DME approaches with the GNC 255A as well. You would not be able to do LPV approaches since that requires a WAAS GPS.

Your GNC 250XL is a VFR-only GPS/COM. The GTR 225A is only a COM radio and doesn't give you ILS or VOR capability.

If you want LPV precision approach capability, you need to replace your non-IFR GNC 250XL VFR GPS/COM with something like a Garmin GTN 650 or older GNS 430W/530W. The GTN 650 would cost you about $12,000 installed. That would also give you a compatible display for the FIS-B weather and TIS-B traffic provided by the GTX 345. The GTN 650 is a GPS/NAV/COM that gives you all of the IFR precision and non-precision approaches. The GNS 430W/530W also are WAAS GPS/NAV/COMs with all of the IFR approach capabilities but they are older units with less display resolution and other limitations. You can still buy a GNS 430W and have it installed for about $10,000 but I'd spend the extra $2,000 and go for the GTN 650. The GTN 750 is a larger display.

[Joe Crecente]

Okay, thanks for that good info. I think I will start by installing the 345 (I have Foreflight on iPad) and the 255. Later I will replace the 250XL with the 650 and should be covered. It will be a while before I am ready for IFR anyway.
Thanks again.

Joe