Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

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psehorne
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Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by psehorne »

As mog stated regarding bushwheels (in another thread) "...most of us don’t need them...". I have never done off airport landings, but I think the the Baby Bushwheel tailwheel could provide some utility to my everyday flying. I'm interested in others thoughts. Would Baby Bushwheel tailwheel provide and advantage over my stock Maule tailwheeel (steering, ground friction, help avoid ground loop, etc.)? Are any of you using the Baby Bushwheel tailwheel with standard 8.5 mains?

My Maule is an M-4-180V.

Thanks,
Paul
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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by UP-M5 »

this will raise the tail of your airplane wthout raising the mains. so you will be creating less angle of attack from the wings durring takeoff. meaning you will have to get to a faster speed on the ground before the wing will fly you to safety. and landings will either have to be at a faster approach speed, or you will no doubt be landing tailwheel first. all bad things.
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Re:Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by psehorne »

UP-M5 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:43 pm
this will raise the tail of your airplane wthout raising the mains. so you will be creating less angle of attack from the wings durring takeoff. meaning you will have to get to a faster speed on the ground before the wing will fly you to safety. and landings will either have to be at a faster approach speed, or you will no doubt be landing tailwheel first. all bad things.
I appreciate your input, but most of what you state is the opposite of what I expected.

Having the tail higher than usual on the takeoff roll would be a good thing, reducing drag, possibly allowing you to get up to flying speed quicker.

The standard Maule landing as taught to me by Ray Maule (and can be seen in some of Maule's own videow) is tailwheel first. Ray never emphasized landing smoothly. Emphasis was on short landings.

However, I think that plop-it-on style contributes to the Maule's known propensity to break mufflers. Thus I have transitioned to 3-point. It makes for a smoother touchdown. And, of course, the tail first landing is still an option if deemed desirable, although at a somewhat lower angle of attack.

Anyone care to critique my thoughts? Am I mistaken?

Do any of you have first-hand experience with 8.5 mains and Baby Bushwheel tailwheel combination and have any observations to offer? or, for that matter, do any of you have additional thoughts/theories on the subject even if you have not flown with the combination?
Last edited by psehorne on Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Paul
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montana maule
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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by montana maule »

I had the baby bushwheel with 8.50x6 in my wheel skis and flew it that way after removing the skis. Just a different sight picture on the ground. I have had my airplanes configured many different ways. Extended gear , big tires, small tailwheel( shortest take off and landings). Big tailwheel, standard gear. small tires or skis. (best view when on the ground). Nothing adverse as far as handling characteristics. Took my baby bushwheel off. Got tired of wearing that expensive tire out. I would sell the fork.

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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by Andy Young »

It depends on what your goals are.

That higher tail might give you marginally-faster acceleration (due to reduced drag) but I doubt you’d be able to measure it or feel it. The higher tail will, however, noticeably increase the speed required to lift off, thus extending your take-off roll.

As far as landing goes, if you like to either do three-points, or touch the tailwheel first, it will indeed soften those. However, as UP-M5 says, you will either be landing significantly tailwheel first, or landing faster. The change in angle also makes the baby Bushwheel more susceptible to tailwheel shimmy. I have experienced that first-hand, and have heard anecdotal evidence from others of the same.

I can’t see any way in which the baby Bushwheel would reduce the possibility of a ground loop. It does have extra traction, due to a larger contact patch, but loss of traction really doesn’t have anything to do with ground loops. When the tail starts going the wrong way due to pilot error, the tailwheel swivels to allow it, vs. the tire skidding across the pavement. That’ll be the same with either tire.

I almost always land on the mains, then set the tailwheel down very late in the landing roll, when I’m quite slow. I have found that I can land and get stopped in 300-400 feet without dropping the tailwheel to the ground until I am almost at a stop. While I fully respect Ray’s experience and perspective, I’m not convinced I could land any shorter with his technique, and it is much harder on the airplane.

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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by psehorne »

Andy, thanks for your input.

Andy Young wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:01 pm
That higher tail might give you marginally-faster acceleration (due to reduced drag) but I doubt you’d be able to measure it or feel it.
I agree.

Andy Young wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:01 pm
The higher tail will, however, noticeably increase the speed required to lift off, thus extending your take-off roll.
I don't understand that.

Andy Young wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:01 pm
The change in angle also makes the baby Bushwheel more susceptible to tailwheel shimmy.
Good to know. Thanks.

Andy Young wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:01 pm
While I fully respect Ray’s experience and perspective, ... it is much harder on the airplane.
I agree. It is much harder on the airplane (as I stated in my orignal post).

An aside: When I was at Moultrie getting my first 10 hours in a Maule with Ray (having previously only flown Citabrias), I had to take an IFR proficiency check ride (before I started off on my trip back home) with a DPE at an airport about 40 miles away. During the flight the DPE told me something like "I would normally have you do a wheel landing, but the FARs state that is necessary 'unless not recommended by the manufacturer'. Maule doesn't recommend wheel landings; although they won't put it in writing". However, it is in writing in Ray's document entitled "The A-B-Cs of Takeoff and Landing in a Maule MX-7-180".

This discussion if providing into I was looking for. Thanks for the input and perspective.

An advantage I assume the Baby Bushwheel tailwheel would provide is better tracking over rough terrain, even without the bush mains. Any comments on that from anyone?
Paul
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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by Andy Young »

Re: having to go faster to take off:

Left exceeding the weight of the aircraft is required to take off. Lift is a function of angle of attack, and airspeed over the wing. Think of it as x times y, where x is angle of attack and y is speed. You can build sufficient lift to take off at a low angle of attack, but you’ll need to get going faster to do it, which uses more runway, since building speed (at least up to relatively low speeds, like 40 mph) is mostly about overcoming inertia, and very little about aerodynamics (overcoming drag). So a low angle of attack take off would be say 1x (angle) times 10y (speed). Or you can use a lot of angle of attack, and then you don’t need so much speed. 10x times 1y. This works for any angle of attack up to that at which the wing stalls, but that angle of attack is greater than the Maule has sitting on all three wheels, so you can’t have too much in this case, at least not until you lift the mains off the runway. By lifting your tail with the baby Bushwheel, you are reducing your angle of attack, so per the formula, you need to increase the speed to get the same lift.

Said another way:
Let’s say your airplane is published as being capable of taking off at 40 mph. That minimum take off speed is dependent on angle of attack. If you have a negative angle of attack (tail really high in the air) it will, of course, never take off, as it’s not building any lift. At zero angle of attack, it might eventually take off, due to Bernoulli and all that, but you’d be way down the runway, going maybe 80 mph by then. As you increase the angle, you increase the lift at any given speed. Restated, you decrease the speed at which sufficient lift occurs, until, eventually, you hit an angle which will allow it to take off at 40 mph.

Think about trikes (like a Cessna 172): why do you rotate when you hit “lift off speed”? To increase the angle of attack, so the airplane will create more lift, and take off. If you didn’t, you’d just keep trundling down the runway until you built enough speed to take off level (low angle of attack).

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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by Andy Young »

Yes, the Bushwheel might track better over rough terrain, as it will have more of a tendency to absorb hits instead of getting deflected. That said, if it’s that rough, it’s best to keep the tailwheel off the ground as much as possible.

Yup, I’m aware of the official Maule recommendation to only do three-points. That works fine in places with pavement and smooth grass. It doesn’t work so well on truly rough surfaces. There are other arguments for wheel landings, (crosswinds, visibility, etc) but those have been well-covered elsewhere on this forum. Probably best to not let this thread go down that road. That way lies madness...

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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by psehorne »

Andy Young wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:44 pm
Re: having to go faster to take off:

Lift exceeding the weight of the aircraft is required to take off. Lift is a function of angle of attack, and airspeed over the wing. etc, etc.
It seems you are considering only a takeoff where you leave the tailwheel on the ground until you reach flying speed. But that is not the usual takeoff. I think most of us lift the tailwheeel in the early part of the takeoff roll, gain speed with only the mains on the ground, reach takeoff speed, and only then increase angle of attack to lift off. Having the tail already a little higher because of the Baby Bushwheel shouldn't adversely affect the 'normal' takeoff I just described. In fact, it should only enhance the takeoff (perhaps, as we agreed earlier, only enhancing the takeoff an insignicant amount).

I've read many of your posts and know that you are very well informed, but this is one statement where I disagree with you. What am I missing?
Paul
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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by Andy Young »

psehorne wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:08 pm
Andy Young wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:44 pm
Re: having to go faster to take off:

Lift exceeding the weight of the aircraft is required to take off. Lift is a function of angle of attack, and airspeed over the wing. etc, etc.
It seems you are considering only a takeoff where you leave the tailwheel on the ground until you reach flying speed. But that is not the usual takeoff. I think most of us lift the tailwheeel in the early part of the takeoff roll, gain speed with only the mains on the ground, reach takeoff speed, and only then increase angle of attack to lift off. Having the tail already a little higher because of the Baby Bushwheel shouldn't adversely affect the 'normal' takeoff I just described. In fact, it should only enhance the takeoff (perhaps, as we agreed earlier, only enhancing the takeoff an insignicant amount).

I've read many of your posts and know that you are very well informed, but this is one statement where I disagree with you. What am I missing?
In the technique you describe, I’m guessing you accelerate to something slightly above minimum takeoff speed before increasing the angle of attack. In a tailwheel airplane, the slowest possible takeoff speed will occur at an angle that has the tailwheel just touching the ground (regardless of whether you left it on the ground the whole time, or lifted it, then later dropped it). If you do as you describe, and the plane lifts off before the tailwheel kisses (or nearly does) the ground, you are going at some speed faster than you absolutely needed to. That said, with this technique you might reach said speed more quickly, due to lower drag (partially wing, but largely by eliminating tailwheel friction) If you’re doing as I describe above (taking off a bit faster than minimum flying speed) then you likely won’t notice a difference with the baby Bushwheel. But, if you’re doing it perfectly, and your tailwheel is just about to skim the ground when you lift off, then with the baby Bushwheel you will find that at the same speed you’ve been using to rotate, the tailwheel will hit the ground before you achieve the angle you need to takeoff at that speed. It’s bigger, so it sticks down lower. You’ll need a higher speed to build the same lift at the resultant lower angle.

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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by psehorne »

Andy Young wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:20 pm
... with the baby Bushwheel you will find that at the same speed you’ve been using to rotate, the tailwheel will hit the ground before you achieve the angle you need to takeoff at that speed. It’s bigger, so it sticks down lower. You’ll need a higher speed to build the same lift at the resultant lower angle.
Okay, I understan now. I don't usuall takeoff like that. I'm not operaating on backcountry stips or from any strip where I need that extra little bit. Good to know, though.

Thanks again.
Paul
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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by Rezrider »

I'll add some drivel even though this thread has a few different discussions happening at the same time, mostly related.

Baby bushwheel: I had one on for a while with both 850's and 26' mains and there isn't much difference between the 2 combos. The place I really liked the baby bushwheel are the soft sandy airstrips out west and particularly when making a tight turn on an airstrip. The extra floatation of that tire is great.
The downsides were the shimmy on hard surfaces. I tried everything to get it to go away, worked on the castor angle, changed the leaf spring, tightened the tailwheel head, nothing worked. I got fed up since I have a fair amount of pavement landings versus sandy airstrips so I took it off.

Angle of attack: the Maule design is lacking a bit in sufficient angle of attack in the 3 point attitude for take off and landing. Those that have the extended main gear have commented that this increases the AOA to where it 'should' be. I have stock mains and agree that the AOA is too 'shallow' during take off, hence bouncing off the the tailwheel if rotating too aggressively. On landing, to get to a proper full stall touchdown the nose will be so high that the tailwheel will hit first placing high amounts of stress on the wheel assembly and the attachment bolt to the airframe. I know this having ripped that bolt out of the frame after a tailwheel first landing.

Wheel landings: (get the popcorn ready for this one!) I wheel land the Maule M-5 all the time no problem. I also 3 point it at times. I use the surface that I'm landing on as the determining factor. All Maule pilots should be proficient in both. Watch Patrick Romano's videos on the different landing techniques.

Go out and try all of these different combinations and see what you think. Do whatever works best for you type of flying.
Good luck, be safe about it and report back to us with your findings.
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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by psehorne »

Rezrider wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 am
I'll add some drivel even though this thread has a few different discussions happening at the same time, mostly related.
Rezrider
Baby bushwheel: The place I really liked the baby bushwheel are the soft sandy airstrips out west and particularly when making a tight turn on an airstrip. The extra floatation of that tire is great.
The downsides were the shimmy on hard surfaces. [/quote]
Rezrider wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 am
Angle of attack: the Maule design is lacking a bit in sufficient angle of attack in the 3 point attitud... hence bouncing off the the tailwheel if rotating too aggressively. On landing, to get to a proper full stall touchdown the nose will be so high that the tailwheel will hit firs
Rezrider wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 am
Wheel landings: ... I wheel land the Maule M-5 all the time no problem. I also 3 point it at times. I use the surface that I'm landing on as the determining factor. All Maule pilots should be proficient in both. Watch Patrick Romano's videos on the different landing techniques.

Thanks, Rezrider, for all the good info.

All, I've learned a lot from this thread. I did not mean for it to become yet another wheelie vs 3-point discussion (and it didn't). The little that did come up on that topic I think contributed to the OP's question. And a lot more was learned about AOA than was expected. All good info. Thanks.
Paul
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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by psehorne »

Rezrider wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 am
I'll add some drivel even though this thread has a few different discussions happening at the same time, mostly related.
Rezrider wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 am
Baby bushwheel: The place I really liked the baby bushwheel are the soft sandy airstrips out west and particularly when making a tight turn on an airstrip. The extra floatation of that tire is great.
The downsides were the shimmy on hard surfaces.
Rezrider wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 am
Angle of attack: the Maule design is lacking a bit in sufficient angle of attack in the 3 point attitud... hence bouncing off the the tailwheel if rotating too aggressively. On landing, to get to a proper full stall touchdown the nose will be so high that the tailwheel will hit firs
Rezrider wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:20 am
Wheel landings: ... I wheel land the Maule M-5 all the time no problem. I also 3 point it at times. I use the surface that I'm landing on as the determining factor. All Maule pilots should be proficient in both. Watch Patrick Romano's videos on the different landing techniques.
Thanks, Rezrider, for all the good info.

All, I've learned a lot from this thread. I did not mean for it to become yet another wheelie vs 3-point discussion (and it didn't). The little that did come up on that topic I think contributed to the OP's question. And a lot more was learned about AOA than was expected. All good info. Thanks.
Paul
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2004 M-4-180V N799ZZ
Hidden Valley Airpark 5TX0, Shady Shores (Denton), TX

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Re: Baby Bushwheel tailwheel

Post by maules.com »

B.D. told me back in 1975 the original Maule was designed so it could not be stalled at takeoff.
Stall speed being aprox 45mph but with stock tyres and 3 point angle of attack on the ground the wing needs 55mph to lift off. His trick was to raise the tail high then force it back down hard and drop a notch of flaps. Tailspring flattened and AOA increased. See progressive pictures of early brochure takeoff.
Since those days tyres and gear have increased in size so that now, one can stall at takeoff. Don't.

Regarding Ray's "ABCs of takeoff and landings". He was attempting to teach the Mexican gov't pilots to fly a production run of the MX7-180 and two M7-235 that he sold to them in 1993.
Unfortunately his words quote" However, there is one area where we differ slightly (Not slightly): the book (The Complete Taildragger Pilot) advocates wheel landings, whereas we don't recommend them in the Maule aircraft."end quote.
The public got a copy of this letter to Captain Macedo and the statement became maule fake news, a myth.
I believe this has wrongly influenced Maule owners and instructors, as I have heard it so oft repeated, and subsequently i believe these words have contributed to so many of the Maule landing accidents over the years.
The Maule can be wheel landed on left main only(for xwind or sideslope), right main only(xwind or sideslope), both mains, even tailwheel only.
To fly a plane well, one should be able to do with the airplane, anything the plane can do otherwise the pilot is 'behind' the plane, not 'one with it'.
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