Not enough elevator? M4
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- Brenton C
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Iceman, are these full flap approaches?iceman wrote:yeah it is all timing... I was dropping it for a long time trying to land it like myold tripacer... a tripacer it is not.... then I started controling my decents with more power.. now it's knowing when to add a bit of power just above ground to arrest the plop....and soften the touchdown...right now I'm flying a few hours a week getting tuned up for Idaho 15 july.... slow flight and spot landings are paramount.....TxAgfisher wrote:It's on 31's, been looking at the extended gear as well... What about the landing issue? Is it just getting down the timing?
For the longest time I was doing approaches lower, longer and faster, with power to idle long before flare.
A few lessons with our friend Rick Geiger, also on this list, taught me the value of coming in slower, steeper, holding a touch of power til just before the flare (like, about a second). These landings are feeling much better now, and the plane seems to like it too -- it just seems to "settle in" to approaches done this way.
I'm just glad Mauley and I are back on speaking terms.
- TxAgfisher
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Are you saying at the end you pull power or add a little?Brenton C wrote:Iceman, are these full flap approaches?iceman wrote:yeah it is all timing... I was dropping it for a long time trying to land it like myold tripacer... a tripacer it is not.... then I started controling my decents with more power.. now it's knowing when to add a bit of power just above ground to arrest the plop....and soften the touchdown...right now I'm flying a few hours a week getting tuned up for Idaho 15 july.... slow flight and spot landings are paramount.....TxAgfisher wrote:It's on 31's, been looking at the extended gear as well... What about the landing issue? Is it just getting down the timing?
For the longest time I was doing approaches lower, longer and faster, with power to idle long before flare.
A few lessons with our friend Rick Geiger, also on this list, taught me the value of coming in slower, steeper, holding a touch of power til just before the flare (like, about a second). These landings are feeling much better now, and the plane seems to like it too -- it just seems to "settle in" to approaches done this way.
I'm just glad Mauley and I are back on speaking terms.
- Brenton C
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So I'm holding power, just a little, all the way to just before the flare, then I pull it off.
I know that a variation of this is to give a burst of power somewhere just before the flare to arrest the desent. Probably it's a steeper, slower desent that calls for this. My short finals I'm flying in around 55 (with vortex generators I should add).
Back country pilot you tube videos have a couple videos demonstrating very slow, back of the curve power on desents with a blast of power at the end for executing very very short landings. These are worth a watch.
I know that a variation of this is to give a burst of power somewhere just before the flare to arrest the desent. Probably it's a steeper, slower desent that calls for this. My short finals I'm flying in around 55 (with vortex generators I should add).
Back country pilot you tube videos have a couple videos demonstrating very slow, back of the curve power on desents with a blast of power at the end for executing very very short landings. These are worth a watch.
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yes i hold power on and control decent with it and just hold it off with power when I flair... settles in nicely most of the time although every landing is different as you probably know... and yes full flap landings..in cross winds I keep power on after touchdown to aid in staying straight in three point while I dance and slowly reduce power to idle... puts more wind over the rudder in higher cross winds...I have V G's too and I'm over the fence ,so to speak, at 55 and stall about 45.....seeing the stall light more often at touchdown is a sign your doing it right...never gave much thought to long flat approaches... always did steep short approaches in the tripacers i owned but they settled onto the runway differently... there was no plop... so i had to learn to adjust in the flair with power and power during directional control on the runway.. mostly I do three point landings but you should have wheel landings in your bag too...
Iceman
- Brenton C
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i speak from experience only I'm not a cfi but I have learned from a ground loop and a cross wind that lifted my right wing and dragged my left wingtip before I could correct... it happens fast...both incidents were at idle after touchdown.. had I had power over the rudder while braking it wouldn't have been a problem...
Iceman
- Brenton C
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I know what yer talking about, there, Iceman. I had 2 ground loops, the second occurred on the second flight (in my plane) after the first.
I've been very nervous during that phase of landing after the tail wheel drops, and there's little control left from the control surfaces. Even though I've since determined it was a broken tail wheel that steered me wrong, quite literally.
If I were Bob Hoover, I'd like to perfect the art of adding power and brakes as I roll out, so the tail wheel can be held off til I decide it goes down.
I've been very nervous during that phase of landing after the tail wheel drops, and there's little control left from the control surfaces. Even though I've since determined it was a broken tail wheel that steered me wrong, quite literally.
If I were Bob Hoover, I'd like to perfect the art of adding power and brakes as I roll out, so the tail wheel can be held off til I decide it goes down.
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- TxAgfisher
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Did a little practice in the pattern yesterday...
In my M4 (with VG's) the controls turn to mush around 45kts. Really don't like dragging it in any slower than that - maybe it is my comfort level and maybe it is just the true minimum control of this airplane.
What I was noticing is that I really don't gain any airspeed by lowering the nose a little (so I can see!) and it is easier to settle not being so tail low. It's still a timing thing and I'm getting a better feel for what it is going to do.
I guess what I am getting at is that I know what I can do with the airplane, and I can get it in a 400' strip over some 20' trees where the airplane is based. How many places will I go that it won't be enough. None! I wouldn't fly into a strip that short unless there was an easy go around.
In my M4 (with VG's) the controls turn to mush around 45kts. Really don't like dragging it in any slower than that - maybe it is my comfort level and maybe it is just the true minimum control of this airplane.
What I was noticing is that I really don't gain any airspeed by lowering the nose a little (so I can see!) and it is easier to settle not being so tail low. It's still a timing thing and I'm getting a better feel for what it is going to do.
I guess what I am getting at is that I know what I can do with the airplane, and I can get it in a 400' strip over some 20' trees where the airplane is based. How many places will I go that it won't be enough. None! I wouldn't fly into a strip that short unless there was an easy go around.
- Brenton C
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That's impressively slow on approach. Are you giving a burst of throttle before you flare to arrest the descent?
Check these two videos by forum member Pat Romano:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPJac80W9Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4NnmbbSizQ
Check these two videos by forum member Pat Romano:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPJac80W9Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4NnmbbSizQ
- TxAgfisher
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I've watched that series several times. I didn't think I was getting it slow comparatively after watching that because the stall horn never comes on. It takes quite a bit of power to settle it but I start bringing the power back in maybe 20ft off the deck so I am not firewalling it right before impact.
- Brenton C
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I wish that, when I was talking to him on the phone that day, I'd asked him if he uses this technique, or a version of it for regular landings. I just hate the feel of coming in fast, but it really feels much better coming over the fence about 55. But I'm not giving it any power burst.
I'd like to experiment coming in a bit slower, a bit higher, full flaps, and experiment with that power burst before flare.
I'll keep your 20' as a target altitude to work towards.
I'd like to experiment coming in a bit slower, a bit higher, full flaps, and experiment with that power burst before flare.
I'll keep your 20' as a target altitude to work towards.
- Mog
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My guess is based off his wording and of course the dynamic of aviation that he uses several types of approach. Though these slow approaches are fun and good to practice regularly, it severely reduces your safety margin at longer air strips for little to no good reason. This is especially true at strips that have houses or other structures just before the fence but remains true even if you are in a less populated area. I practice these approaches every weekend at one of several grass strips but I usually pick up the speed a bit when arriving at my home airport.Brenton C wrote:I wish that, when I was talking to him on the phone that day, I'd asked him if he uses this technique, or a version of it for regular landings. I just hate the feel of coming in fast, but it really feels much better coming over the fence about 55. But I'm not giving it any power burst.
I'd like to experiment coming in a bit slower, a bit higher, full flaps, and experiment with that power burst before flare.
I'll keep your 20' as a target altitude to work towards.
- TxAgfisher
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I agree Mog, I need to get back to practicing both instead of just slow.Mog wrote:My guess is based off his wording and of course the dynamic of aviation that he uses several types of approach. Though these slow approaches are fun and good to practice regularly, it severely reduces your safety margin at longer air strips for little to no good reason. This is especially true at strips that have houses or other structures just before the fence but remains true even if you are in a less populated area. I practice these approaches every weekend at one of several grass strips but I usually pick up the speed a bit when arriving at my home airport.Brenton C wrote:I wish that, when I was talking to him on the phone that day, I'd asked him if he uses this technique, or a version of it for regular landings. I just hate the feel of coming in fast, but it really feels much better coming over the fence about 55. But I'm not giving it any power burst.
I'd like to experiment coming in a bit slower, a bit higher, full flaps, and experiment with that power burst before flare.
I'll keep your 20' as a target altitude to work towards.
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