Crashing

[kakkenmc]

Anybody out there with experience in engine out landings? I'm interested in possible Maule idiosyncrasies especially on a takeoff engine failure. Here's an optional scenario. Maule MX235-7, below average pilot, 2 notch flap, sudden failure, 500 ft agl, trees and suburban yards and ponds below, 80mph IAS.

[Kirk]

I've got notes in the airplane on this and will have to verify but I think the numbers I came up with while doing some proficiency flying showed me that 700 feet was about what I lost doing a teardrop turn after simulated engine loss.

M5-235, 2100 lbs, 20 degrees flap, 3000 foot density altitude.

Kirk

[a64pilot]

FWIW, You are better off maintaining control and crashing into trees than you are attempting to turn back to the airfield. Even if you put it into the trees under control, you'll probably walk away from it. You'll probably not walk away from a stall - spin accident.
In my opinion, turning back to the airfield is graduate level flying and your statement was a below average pilot.
The thing that was constantly beat into my head as a military pilot was that the most important consideration in any emergency was aircraft control.

[Skystrider]

I agree with a64pilot. Aircraft control is the key. Personally, I have set 1,000 ft agl before attempting a return to field. All else means a straight ahead landing within 20 to 30 degrees each way. No exceptions! I have read too many crash reports involving highly experienced pilots that made that fatal mistake.

I could probably get away with less than 1,000 ft but it is easy to add that to the field elevation without making a math mistake. Another problem you don't want to have in the middle of an emergency!

[Lowflybye]

And remember, if you do try to make that 180 turn back to the field...turn INTO the wind or you won't have a chance of hitting the runway.

My mental takeoff checklist includes: positive rate...gear up (when applicable) / clear of obstacles...flaps up / identify emergency landing area within 45 degrees either side of the spinner / pattern altitude...Fuel pump off / throttle & prop set for climb. Once pattern altitude is reached, you should be able to return to the strip in the event of an engine problem.

[kakkenmc]

Assuming glide distance is not an issue, would adding flaps help or hurt?

[Green Hornet]

The one thing that kills is trying to save the aircraft. Treat loss of power on take off like you are in a rental aircraft. The goal is to walk away from the problem to fly another day. Fly the airplane straight ahead to the best landing place you can spot or have picked out. Remember the plane is insured and you can always get another one. As for flaps settings upon take off you have flaps set. I personally would not spend time worrying about that, level off at 80mph or best glide and put the plane down on the ground. I know 2 recent pilots who have walked away from power loss. One landed in the bay close to the shore flaring his tail into the water allowing the front of the plane to come down as softly as possible to the water, got out and walked to shore. He tried a restart but that was all the time he had for trying things. He did not have time for maydays, he forgot to cut off battery and did not have his door open. The plane was totaled because of salt water but he got another one 2 months later.
The other guy just got to best glide and flew straight ahead to land in the boggy shoreline. He was on frequency so he reported going down to the tower but the main focus was glide and land at his chosen spot. Here again the plane was totaled. He got another one 3 months later. Usually the guys who try to save the plane lose their lives. Food for thought!

[Wayne]

a64pilot said-
You are better off maintaining control and crashing into trees than you are attempting to turn back to the airfield. Even if you put it into the trees under control, you'll probably walk away from it. You'll probably not walk away from a stall - spin accident.

sojorrn said-
The goal is to walk away from the problem to fly another day. Fly the airplane straight ahead to the best landing place you can spot or have picked out.

I couldn't agree with these guys more on this. I lost an engine and when it quits just remember FLY the plane and that means air speeed to. The angle of decent will be much more with a dead stick than your use to with and idling engine. Thats why you will need to really watch your air speed.Don't pick your spot to far away because your going to land on whats right in front of you any way.

[kakkenmc]

If you've made your emergency landing site, will pulling 4 notches of flaps make you drop too fast to be worth the groundspeed decrease? Departure speeds are awfully fast. I'm trying to envision how to slow down. Could a damaging hard downward landing (like Jeremy's approach stall) be more survivable than a less vertical but much faster landing? I guess I'm trying to find out the best stabilized descent rate/forward speed combo of a 4 notch dead stick Maule.

[210TC]

I to agree with a64.
I will advise you to go up and shut the engine off and practice dead sticks.
Back in the 80's we would have spot landing contest. The rule was you had to shut down your engine and do a three sixty then land on the line.
The practice which was required to compete in this event was the best trainning one could get.
More than one landing gear got bent, but the winner always hit the line.

[210TC]

Btw: when you have an engine out at low altitude all the books and prior plans go out the window.
My daughter soloed on december 8,07. I have not shut the engine down yet, but I pull the engine on her all of the time. This last saturday I radioed midfield for emergency. She keep trying to advance the throttle while I held it off, she made a perfect landing and as soon as she took off again at 50 feet are so, I jerked it off again. I have said to her "I hope you never lose an engine, but if you do you will know what to do.

[Kirk]

I think 1000 foot is a good cutoff for attempting a 180 also. I've found best turn radius and least altitude loss with flaps at 20 degrees and 45 to 60 bank. 60 degree bank shoots your stall speed way up though.

Barry Schiff had a good treat ment of that in his last 2 articles is AOPA Pilot.

All that said, I believe if you are at 1000 foot, you're likely to have just as many good landing sites ahead of you, making the risk of a 180 turn undesirable.

The biggest problem I have had getting control of in practicing engine out in the Maule is getting the right speed and not having a high sink rate with low speed. I found 20 flaps and 80 mph until I am ready to round out worked best for me. Less speed than that or more flaps and it set up a high sink rate that required power to arrest.

I do a twice yearly proficiency flight. Go out and do steep turn, stalls, engine out and some non-precision approaches. Have never found a Maule proficient instructor around here so I sort of 'roll my own' lesson plan

Kirk

[MikeW]

Another thing guys can do to increase the glide distance is in airplanes with constant speed props, pull the prop knob out and send the prop to a higher pitch(less drag). Just make sure to push it in if recovering with power. Fixed pitch can pull the nose up and slow down and stop the prop. It's hard to have the discipline to do this but it works.



Mike

[Lowflybye]

Another thing guys can do to increase the glide distance is in airplanes with constant speed props, pull the prop knob out and send the prop to a higher pitch(less drag).

It was my understanding that with the engine power lost there is not enough oil pressure available to change the prop pitch to it's high pitch setting. I do not know this to be fact and will still pull the knob it faced with the situation just in case.

[a64pilot]

Another thing guys can do to increase the glide distance is in airplanes with constant speed props, pull the prop knob out and send the prop to a higher pitch(less drag). Just make sure to push it in if recovering with power. Fixed pitch can pull the nose up and slow down and stop the prop. It's hard to have the discipline to do this but it works.



Mike

The constant speed thing won't work even though I hear it all of the time from flight instructors. As long as there is oil pressure to overcome the spring in the prop dome, the prop will go into coarse pitch. As soon as the oil pressure goes away the spring in the prop dome will return the prop into flat pitch. If the engine stops windmilling, then the oil pressure goes away. Just the opposite is true for turbine aircraft, remove the oil pressure and they feather, most, but not all do anyway.
If you lose an engine at less than pattern altitude, then doing things like slowing down to stop the prop is counter productive because you will develop a high rate of sink at those airspeeds and without altitude to recover the speed you hit the ground at a high descent rate.
I'm not sure about your flight manual, but the emergency procedure for engine failure after take off for my M-6 is exactly what I think you should do. I've looked at it and in my opinion it covers all the bases. that's an opinion of course, and it is harder for an accident investigator or insurance adjuster to find fault if you follow the correct emergency procedure. If you make up your own, well your wrong.