3 point take off with full flaps

Rezrider · Post by **Rezrider** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:45 am

I tried this the other day, just me on board and almost full mains.
The M5 was airborne in a way shorter distance than my regular 1 notch flaps wheel take off.
I was off the ground at about 45 MPH IAS, lowered the nose substantially and accelerated in ground effect with ease.
Has anyone else tried this?
Granted my M5 full flaps is 40 deg, so less than you M7 drivers. I'm not sure I'd want to try it with any more drag than that.

Pros, cons, thought?

Mountain Doctor · Post by **Mountain Doctor** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:25 am

I saw a video on Cub Crafters yesterday where their CFI advocates just what you are suggesting. He said (in that plane at least) that it cleared the runway faster with less movement/effort (more ease and maybe safety) on the pilot's part.

I've never tried it in my Trigear, but sometimes I will do the 'jump' takeoff with a takeoff roll at 0 degrees and yank 24-40 degrees at about 45 MPH and full throttle.

Loogie · Post by **Loogie** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:45 pm

The POH rec's 1 notch for T.O. so trying take off's with full flaps is called "testing". A take off run with 1 notch is still very very short, not sure what the advantages of getting airborne a few feet earlier and then using ground effect to achieve flying/climb speed. The negatives outweigh the positives here, extra drag, etc... Not to mention a creating a questionable situtation for coverage in case you bend it using full flaps for take off. Just a thought, sometimes "watch this" leads to "oh s*&t". So be careful trying something like that.

Rezrider · Post by **Rezrider** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:56 pm

Actually the POH for the M5 permits the 'second notch' of flaps for a short field take off. Since I only have a 3 position flap lever then the 2nd notch is full flaps in my plane.
The advantages of a shorter ground roll would be apparent with a short strip but no obstacles getting in the way of a ground roll acceleration.
It may also help with a soft surface situation.

I'm not trying to be a 'watch this' pilot so don't worry!

Beamerpilot · Post by **Beamerpilot** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:01 pm

Loogie wrote:The POH rec's 1 notch for T.O. so trying take off's with full flaps is called "testing". A take off run with 1 notch is still very very short, not sure what the advantages of getting airborne a few feet earlier and then using ground effect to achieve flying/climb speed. The negatives outweigh the positives here, extra drag, etc... Not to mention a creating a questionable situtation for coverage in case you bend it using full flaps for take off. Just a thought, sometimes "watch this" leads to "oh s*&t". So be careful trying something like that.

My exact thought and reaction...but I'm just tired of getting beat up on various websites when I post preaching some restraint and further study and investigation before going to the aircraft and playing test pilot. So I try to keep my keyboard shut.
In this particular case mechanical turbulence amongst other things will teach you a harsh lesson 10 feet above the ground.
Both of our countries have had their share of fatals lately lets keep that in mind.

Mountain Doctor · Post by **Mountain Doctor** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:12 pm

FWIW my POH states I can land with any flap setting.

Rezrider · Post by **Rezrider** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:32 pm

Beamerpilot wrote:
Loogie wrote:The POH rec's 1 notch for T.O. so trying take off's with full flaps is called "testing". A take off run with 1 notch is still very very short, not sure what the advantages of getting airborne a few feet earlier and then using ground effect to achieve flying/climb speed. The negatives outweigh the positives here, extra drag, etc... Not to mention a creating a questionable situtation for coverage in case you bend it using full flaps for take off. Just a thought, sometimes "watch this" leads to "oh s*&t". So be careful trying something like that.
My exact thought and reaction...but I'm just tired of getting beat up on various websites when I post preaching some restraint and further study and investigation before going to the aircraft and playing test pilot. So I try to keep my keyboard shut.
In this particular case mechanical turbulence amongst other things will teach you a harsh lesson 10 feet above the ground.
Both of our countries have had their share of fatals lately lets keep that in mind.

Don't keep your keyboard shut on my account. I asked for thoughts and opinions and my feelings aren't hurt if you disagree with me.
This board is about learning through sharing.
I'm looking for concerns or details to watch out for that I haven't thought of yet myself.
But, I don't agree that trying a different technique absolutely makes me a 'test pilot'.
The day I tried this was calm wind, 6500ft paved runway with just me on board and almost full mains.

Loogie · Post by **Loogie** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:01 pm

Rezrider, one more thing to consider with an early lift off, would be a strong x-w with full flaps in the M-5. The resultant force due to x-w is higher than in a normal takeoff, so I would anticipate a big drift because it would be difficult to keep it on track over the runway.

Also, flying is not very tolerant of mistakes, in my book flying a new technique that has never been demonstrated to me is doing something new. There are pitfalls when trying new techniques that haven't been demonstrated first, that is testing your skills. All the pitfalls that go with learning something new are there, although they may not be apparent, and even more so when the new technique has not been demonstrated.

Looks like you have thought out your plan thoroughly to learn that new technique, but it is always smart to be reminded from someone who has a lot of experience trying new things in a plane (in a professional environment , of course)...

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:29 pm

been doing a version of this for 10 years.. full throttle no flaps.. at 40-45 tail up and pull full flaps .. maule virtually leaps off the ground and accelerates just fine...then slowly lower the flaps..... and yes it is a shorter ground roll that way...never had a oh shit moment and I use it a lot every summer in Idaho on the shorter strips I visit... don't do it much at home though unless I'm practicing for Idaho...Did it with my tripacer before I bought the M4 and it works just fine with both planes.....I have 40 degree flaps also and I can tell you you will accelerate faster with no flaps then pull.... but be aware of control when you pull flaps... you don't want to accidentally push left or right rudder as you are pulling full flaps...

Kirk · Post by **Kirk** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:35 pm

As for me, I've always gotten best results for liftoff by starting takeoff roll with flaps 20, 3 potato count, raise tail to slightly tail low attitude, another 3 potato count if light weight 5-6 if heavy/hot&high, then pull additional flap for liftoff.

Amount of flap on the pull depending on roughness of runway, how urgently I need to liftoff and how well I timed it. Ease the flap lever back to the 20 detent as speed increases and nose lowers a bit, basically right after liftoff.

Yes, the M5 manual permits take offs with flaps 40.

My opinion, the standard gear tailwheel Maules (versus the oh-so-cool extended gear) do best this way because the geometry of the gear does not allow enough AOA for liftoff. That issue has been discussed a lot in the past and lead me to this technique. Jeremy had some great advice on this many years ago.

Been doing it that way so long, it is just second nature now.

Kirk

Victor Gennaro · Post by **Victor Gennaro** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:59 am

How is your elevator trim set when you try this maneuver?

Mountain Doctor · Post by **Mountain Doctor** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:25 am

When I do the 'jump' takeoff, I have the trim set for normal takeoff. May require some nose down elevator pressure.

Rezrider · Post by **Rezrider** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:27 am

Victor Gennaro wrote:How is your elevator trim set when you try this maneuver?

A little bit of nose down trim to help with the lowering of the nose after lift off.

Kirk · Post by **Kirk** » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:28 pm

Trim neutral for me solo with 50 lbs or so on the back. Just a 1/4" or so forward if fully loaded and aft cg.

Suppose it would depend on your own airplanes CG and are we talking M5, 6,7 etc or 235, 180 hp etc.

Kirk

95E · Post by **95E** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:24 pm

Just a thought from someone new to the board, but i can see a distinct benefit to any maneuver that results in lower ground pressure in a shorter distance or at a slower speed. This time of year up here makes that point clear with the soft and/or rough surfaces on most off-pave runways while the snow and ice melt. You have to take into account all aspects on any flight and decision of whether or not to make it, including x-winds, surface etc, but with the right winds, clearing the hazards of the surface sooner and completing acceleration in ground effect could be a safer option.

3 point take off with full flaps

3 point take off with full flaps

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