Landing with Back Seats full?

[Brenton C]

I'm wondering if there's a different method of managing the landing when the seats are full?

I took family members up for a memorable ride through the foothills this morning. The scenery was dramatic, but not half as much as the ground loop upon landing.

I have no idea what when wrong. Maybe winds were 3kt pretty straight down the pipe. I was down, rolling out, holding the tail up for just a moment, till it would feel safe to let it down and hold it down, but just before that moment came, around she went. One wing tip, then the other.

I'm considering ditching aviation at this point. I had an incident in July, forum members might recall.

[pilot]

Darn, sorry about the loop - hopefully nothing was damaged other than some pride and some wingtips!

Seems like if you had enough speed to keep the tail up when loaded there bound to have been a gust or something to knock you off balance.

[Mountain Doctor]

I am very sorry to hear about your incident, but very happy to hear that no tremendous harm was done to the aircraft, and that you and your passengers were safe. As I understand it, ground loops are expensive, and very very aggravating, but rarely dangerous.

I am a nosewheel pilot (at times like this, contently so), but I would imagine that the passengers in the back give you a more aft center of gravity, so that if the back and starts to go around on you, it has a higher degree of angular momentum and is harder to correct for. This is a hypothesis based on my understanding of taildraggers and physics, but may not be an ideal explanation.

I assume you were on a paved runway.

In any event, this is what God made insurance companies for. I say take care of the wing tips, and keep flying, and enjoy yourself for as long as health and money holds out. That is my plan at any rate.

God bless and happy new year

[Brenton C]

Thanks fellas for your supportive and sympathetic comments.

Yes, wing tips -- quite minor damage to those. I imagine a little epoxy and a little paint, and they can be salvaged. Also some damage to the elevator, which bent up wards, just to the outside of the hinge. No prop strike. But definitely an ego strike. Not that I had lots of ego.

In retrospect, I think the rear ward CG likely was a factor, as well as the added weight. I punched in full power to get outta there, and had it just been 1 or 2 of us . . . well, I think I've powered out of worse landings before, but it wasn't gonna leap into the air again today.

I realize, also, I forgot to rest my gaze down the runway as / just before I landed. I suspect I might have picked up on the developing "unusual attitude" earlier had I done so.

I do hope the insurance company doesn't cancel me. It's only the second flight (in this plane) since my July incident.

[VA Maule]

Does Canadain law require you to report this to the insurance Co.? You repair it out of pocket and avoid the dreaded insurance increase,I doubt they're going to cancel your policy,but they will recoup any payout made to you over time.

Insurance worries aside don't give up!!

As M.D. said weight to rear of the pivot point (main gear) will add to directional insatiably,as the aft weight or arm increases insatiably increases exponentially. This is the challenge of the tale dragger and the ease of the nose dragger.

Put some ballest in the rear and practice practice practice add some more ballest and more practice!!! But DON'T give up.

[Hottshot]

It's only the second flight (in this plane) since my July incident.

This is where I would start.... No offence and I don't want this to look like I am belittling you an any way as I know it is tuff to understand text on a forum but practice is the key. lack of which and the extra weight are contributing factors. DON'T QUIT!!! Just go fly the heck out of it. Hours don't mean jack, go do touch and goes full stops etc. Learn to use your brakes if you don't already (To many don't)

[Brenton C]

Evening fellas,

Thank you for these further replies. I appreciate them both, and Wup, no offence taken at all. I'm my own worst critic, though that criticism sometimes doesn't line up completely or accurately with the areas of fault.

I was asking for honest in put, and I'm glad to get it.

In between the July incident and getting back into my own plane just this month, I was feeling really great after doing 6 or so hours of training with Rick Geiger, but I can see that I probably was not prepared for yesterday just from the one final flight with 4 or 5 landings in which my fiancé came along as ballast.

I can see that I would have done well to practice a lot more in my own plane than I did before filling the back seats, and trying to tackle a gross weight approaching 2400 lbs.

By the way, I was pretty impressed I was able to climb to 9000 feet (DA 8340 +/-) with all that weight.

Yesterday, I told my fiancé I just can't be trusted to fly. I "just don't get it." She wasn't hearing any of it.

I appreciate the advice here. It makes sense to me why I "didn't get" what went wrong. Didn't see it developing. Didn't feel it. I was down so sweetly, and rolling out, and THEN . . . !

Practice, and working my way up to the target configuration in increments. That's what I'll do.

About insurance. I don't know the if there's a rule about it, but I kinda wish I hadn't already contacted them. If it's legal to do so, I'm sure the wing tips just need a bit of glue, and there'll be hardly a trace. Then the elevator just needs to be re-bent into shape. Or replaced. As you say, probably for less than the cost of increased rates over the next few years.

If I hadn't called them, and there is a rule, I'd have no problem saying "no damage -- I probably over reacted calling transport canada just cause of a little spin out."

No, I don't think giving up on a life's dream is justified just yet.

[truthinbeer]

So sorry to hear about your little misadventure. Must have felt like impending doom whilst it happened followed by a whirlpool of feelings and self attacks on your ability after. Everyone walked away unharmed.

If you still feel uneasy about it then ask someone to help you with a refresher.
Best of luck.

Oh, and next time put the fatties up front.

[Brenton C]

There's Truth in that, and few beers did help me calm down a little bit afterward.

Damn those chubby passengers!

[chris erasmus]

Hello Brentonc, sorry about your incident and herewith my 10 cents worth from personal experience.

The Maule light and the maule heavy with an aft CofG are 2 totally different animals that require to different techniques. I regularly fly at gross( sometimes a little over) with a far aft CofG . Move your approach speed up to 60/65 mph and don't use full flaps, fly the approach with a bit of power on and "settle" the plane in the flare and onto the ground by bleeding power off gradually. The moment you hit the Tarmac the btch will try to run left with you, and you don't have enough rudder to counter that when you are heavy, you have to stomp the right brake to get her straight, when heavy you need to move through the transition speed as quickly as possible, so don't be afraid to use the brakes. Something else you should have a look at is your undercarriage set up. Make sure you don't have one main running toe out or the camber is all wrong . Further and most importantly as Wup said 1. Don't give up 2. Practice practise practise. Fly the plane at gross as often as you can, what you will find is that you become more sensitive and more proficient with the rudders, what ever little problematic nuances the plane has when light, will be much more pronounced when heavy with a aft CofG .
Good luck with the repairs and don't sweat the small things, fly the lane until the wings fall off.
Cheers
Chris

[chris erasmus]

Something I forgot that I found on my plane, and Wup and Jeremy could be of greater help here. Check the chain tension on the tailwheel if you have too much play she is difficult to steer.
Some other habit a taught myself rightly or wrongly is to dump the flaps the moment my mains touch, I want to be sure the plane is not going to try and fly again, the other thing I do is to keep the yoke in my gut. I want to take all the lift out of the wings as soon as possible, it also gives you decent downward pressure on the tailwheel where your ability to steer the plane is coming from.
And remember the old tailwheel mantra: you ain't done flying until you close the hanger door

[Brenton C]

Hi Chris-- It did go Left before it spun right, both wing tips touching.

I had been on the rudders working the dance, but I was thinking maybe the rudder was over sensitive--this makes sense that it was under-responsive, and that my little inputs were doing nothing as the plane was quickly taking charge of the situation with its own agenda.

[Loogie]

BrentonC Don't give up, taming your plane is dependent on experience, flt instruction with Rick was a great start and wil pay off; the knowledge is there but your proficiency and experience needs to increase (just like most of us).

Get back on the horse and work at it, I believe you will be surprised once you start getting proficient. Proficient means practice, practice etc. Take the time to fly pattern only flights until you can absolutely tell yourself that you are proficient.

It sounds like you were trying to wheel land it by trying to keep the tail up, it is my experience that that is a tougher way to land this lady. Chris E's advice is sound, land 3point and nail that tail to the ground with full aft stick, use you feet to help steering and make sure you keep adding ailernon into the wind as you slow down. If it helps stall the plane on the flare and as you gently touch the tail down one inch before the mains and keep it there. Believe in yourself and make it happen.

Good luck!

[Rocketman]

Something I forgot that I found on my plane, and Wup and Jeremy could be of greater help here. Check the chain tension on the tailwheel if you have too much play she is difficult to steer.

I was reading the thread to see if he mentioned if it started around when the tailwheel touched down. Been there done that. We went home for Christmas once with all four seat full and loaded to gross. I pretty much always did wheel landings and upon touch down of the tailwheel it started around. Afterwards I found the left chain broken. Somewhere in short final I did a full right rudder deflection and the tailwheel remained hard right. It required a quick stab at the left rudder & break to get it straight. From then on I always inspected those chains and springs. Had to get out and untie the tailwheel to move but I never again forgot to look at those chains.This was my first thought reading of his mishap.
Don't quit, Brenton. Right now it hurts and you think everybody is laughing at you but be of good cheer. That Maule will someday make you the envy of all the want-a-b's with superior skills that only come from the schooling just just received. So chin up, fix it, and get back in the seat ASAP!

[Brenton C]

Thanks, Loog'. Yes, it was a wheel landing. Thanks for that encouragement.