To Wheel Land it or NOT to Wheel Land it...

[MikeW]

I like easy too, I'm looking outside on short final as well. I do bump my speeds if heavy, however the published speeds for the newer airplanes, Vx,Vy,Vso, etc are generally based off of max gross wt already. Anyway, the guy that started this thread has probably lost interest and gotten drunk by now.


MikeW

[Jet-A]

...Anyway, the guy that started this thread has probably lost interest and gotten drunk by now.
MikeW

No, actually I am just reading the various different pilot techniques. I started this string with the hopes of getting us all to talk about the one topic that causes us the most grief; landings! The point to all of this in my view is that there is no right answer. We need to all pool our knowledge together rather than in competition. If our advice saves one more pilot from an incident, then we all reap the benefits with lower insurance costs, too.

From the poll responses, it looks like at least 60% of the Maule drivers prefer 3-pointers on hard surface runways (probably all conditions, too). I am glad that nobody picked the "its too dangerous to wheel land" option. As Jeremy stated earlier, a tailwheel pilot needs to be proficient on both types of landings, but especially recovery from a botched one...

Personally, I only wheel land it on hard surface runways with the occasional 3-pointer for practice. I then prefer 3-pointers on the grass & gravel, unless I know for sure the conditions of the turf (i.e. hard or soft). I have found that I do not have to work as hard at landing if I do wheel landings. Just a simple fact that more airspeed = more aileron and rudder effectiveness. Also gets you out of a pinch should you need to. Lastly, although the Maules are really tough, ker-plunking it onto the runway each and every time is stressfull for any airplane. Practice makes perfect, but in the wind, there is going to be some ker-plunking. The mains can handle it fine. The banging on a standard tailwheel - not so good.

BTW - It took me 2 hours flogging it around the pattern to get the wheel landings "right". Now it's amazingly easy. It just takes practice. 3-pointers are, well, standard for the course of being a pilot.

[Green Hornet]

Jet-A, I'm with you Bud when it comes to Wheel landings. Iv'e had my Maule for close to a year and have 100hrs +. In my Citabria days hard surface = wheel landing. This thread has been invaluable to me hence the reason why the delayed response IE; apply the inputs. I have been attempting to get wheel Lndgs. in my back pocket but alas it is going slow. I nailed a couple but tend to bounce and power a go around. I use 24 deg flaps but intend to give it a try with -7, & 0. I find that my Maule has a tendency to sink over the #'s especially in 3 pt configuration. 24 deg
@65KTS, with neg power. Some days I am in the groove and flare just right other days I feel like a beginner and Kaplunk.
Like you said practice, practice , practice. But it is nice to know I'm not the Lone Ranger. BTW my insurance for the first year was $3200.00. I am waiting for this years quote hoping it drops so I'll have more fuel money.
Thanks for the Thread

[Jet-A]

sojorrn,
You are very welcome! I am glad we are all getting the benefit of this topic. If you ever want to practice with me, I am more than willing to show you my technique. For those of you who are farther away than Nor Cal, here is my technique:

Over the fence at 80 mph indicated, 24 deg. of flaps, 1,300 rpm. That's it. Simple, huh?

You flatten out the decent rate at 2-3" above the ground and let it settle to the ground. When the mains touch, apply down elevator to get a slight negative angle of attack and chop the throttle. Keep applying more down elevator as the speed diminishes until you are near the stops, then allow the tail to settle gently. If you need to slow down sooner, apply brakes and keep the slight down attitude adjusted by applying proper elevator first and judicious braking next.

As you get better & better, you will find you can chop the throttle abeam the numbers on downwind and swoop all the way around for a perfect landing everytime. BUT 80 mph indicated seems to work the best.

CHHERS!

[Green Hornet]

I tried the zero deg. flaps today and it really made the difference. I switched from 24 deg to zero on short final. It was the first time I felt that familiar visual approach to the runway I experienced with a Citabria. Although I am using a lot of runway. I expect that to shorten over time. The winds were gusting to 17 KTS from a right 30 deg angle to runway. At 80 MPH I didn't even notice the wind. My goal is a power off wheel landing in a short appoach. Today was a good day!

[DonMc]

Jeremy Why would you have 48' of flaps in the Xwind? I understand landing across the runway at an angle to take out some of the Xwind component. I would want my tail down asap. What am I missing? I would try for upwind main and then tail and finally downwind main with throttle ready if things got out of hand.

Don
260BD

[maules.com]

Don, wayback in this discussion a wind situation was posited and for that scenario, I would use 48deg because I would turn the situation to my favour, of a headwind by landing across runway, and thus want minimum speed for shortest ground roll, plus, the ability to go from 48deg lowest possible stall speed to -7deg highest stall speed by dumping all flaps at or slightly before ground contact.
If the runway was too narrow for angling across, and there were no obstructions along the upwind edge, I would use much less or 0 or -7 if long enough and place my upwind wheel beside the runway to get a built in wing down condition advantage, plus the aid of runway camber to help keep the tailwheel in line. This camber is quite pronounced when landing on roads and if the tailwheel is set down on the wrong side you may head for the opposite ditch.

[offearth]

I sure do enjoy reading the threads here. I now have a little over 50 hours in my m6-235. The majority of my landing have been 3 pointers. After reading this old thread last night I went flying this morning and banged out 11 wheel landings. Flaps 0 24 and 40. Fun just to go out and work on skills.

Thanks for all your posts. Especially the little things like using runway crown to your advantage during x-wind landings.

[bazman]

I had taken a video of recent practice that included wheel landings. Nothing special here, but it is a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvZsaX6ayzY

[MikeW]

Looks like a great day out flying.

MikeW

[DonMc]

"TO WHEEL OR NOT TO WHEEL, THAT IS THE QUESTION"

I ask myself this question depending on the conditions when I am landing. I agree with Jeremy and A64. The poll should include the choice "It depends"
I got my tailwheel signoff with a Viet Nam vet that insisted that I be able to do both types of landings. My insurance man insisted I go to Moultrie and fly with Ray as I did. Ray gave me the book "CompleatTailwheel Pilot" and also the proceedure for the Mexican Govt. When the training was finished, I pointed out that the author of the Compleat Tailwheel Pilot said a properly trained tailwheel pilot should be able to wheel land ANY tailwheel airplane. Ray grumbled at me and said "Come back and I'll teach you how to wheel land a Maule." At first, it wasn't pretty. I tested the man's patience to the max. Ray can do it any time he feels like it. Not to be out done, I went home a practiced for months on a grass strip nearby Now I wheel land most of the time. Weight in the back makes life easier. The "Curplunk" method is probably the easiest to teach and master in a Maule as it requires the least finesse. (trim full nose up, yoke in chest, power off, full flaps) eyes open or closed is optional. All the more reason to keep a close eye on the gear attach bolts! There is no "Right Way" but many "Better Ways" to land a Maule or any other airplane depending on the conditions and the nature of the beast. I enjoy flying a Maule for the challenge it presents me. I agree with Jeremy that landing in all configurations will keep you sharp and ready for the unexpected when it shows up. Not to mention it is just plain FUN! Try practicing an aborted landing in one of the six cylinder models with the trim full aft and see what happens. One of things I like most about a Maule is the fact that it is always waiting for the chance to catch my sleeping.

DonMc
N260BD

[andy]

I hesitate to enter the fray on wheel landings vs. 3-point since it's such an emotional topic among tailwheel pilots. I mostly 3-point in my MX-7-180 although I periodically practice wheel landings to stay proficient. Here's why I prefer 3-point.

I'm not landing on big rocks where I'd need to keep the tailwheel up to avoid damage. The amount of wear and tear on the tailwheel is not a factor on anything but very rough terrain in my opinion.

Its easier and safer for me to land short in a 3-pointer even in a moderate crosswind. I don't use brakes in a wheel landing until the tailwheel is on the ground due to the danger of a nose-over. That means the landing roll in a wheel landing is much longer than a 3-pointer with light braking applied before touchdown.

In a wheel landing the tail comes down as speed bleeds off. There is a point where you are very vulnerable to a crosswind gust when you are slow and the tail is still in the air. With only two wheels on the ground at a slow speed, the airplane will pivot easily in a crosswind gust. Since the point of using a wheel landing is to be able to touch down at a faster airspeed without floating to reduce the effect of crosswind, this vulnerability offsets the benefit.

If I manage my final approach speed well, apply crosswind correction and touch down on the upwind wheel and tailwheel first, I can handle any moderate crosswind. If the crosswind is greater than the published 14 mph, I think it's time to land somewhere else or diagonally across the runway. It's not steady crosswinds that cause most problems - it's gusts when you are near or at touchdown.

I see one situation where I would routinely use wheel landings in my Maule: very rough terrain. There's no question that the main gear and tires are bigger and stronger than the tailwheel. The slower you plant the tailwheel on very rough terrain, the less damage you will do.

I think Maules are designed to favor 3-pointers. For one thing, the tail is very heavy and wants to drop as you get slower on final approach. I measured the weight on the tailwheel with full main tanks and no passengers or baggage - 250 lbs. That's heavy compared to a Citabria, Cub, Super Cub, Husky, etc. That puts more force at the end of the 25-foot long lever. Add a gusty crosswind and a large fuselage and empennage cross-section against which the wind can push and it's not too hard to see why a Maule might be hard to manage with the tail in the air.

[UtahMaule]

I hesitate to enter the fray on wheel landings vs. 3-point since it's such an emotional topic among tailwheel pilots. I mostly 3-point in my MX-7-180 although I periodically practice wheel landings to stay proficient. Here's why I prefer 3-point.

I'm not landing on big rocks where I'd need to keep the tailwheel up to avoid damage. The amount of wear and tear on the tailwheel is not a factor on anything but very rough terrain in my opinion.

Its easier and safer for me to land short in a 3-pointer even in a moderate crosswind. I don't use brakes in a wheel landing until the tailwheel is on the ground due to the danger of a nose-over. That means the landing roll in a wheel landing is much longer than a 3-pointer with light braking applied before touchdown.

In a wheel landing the tail comes down as speed bleeds off. There is a point where you are very vulnerable to a crosswind gust when you are slow and the tail is still in the air. With only two wheels on the ground at a slow speed, the airplane will pivot easily in a crosswind gust. Since the point of using a wheel landing is to be able to touch down at a faster airspeed without floating to reduce the effect of crosswind, this vulnerability offsets the benefit.

If I manage my final approach speed well, apply crosswind correction and touch down on the upwind wheel and tailwheel first, I can handle any moderate crosswind. If the crosswind is greater than the published 14 mph, I think it's time to land somewhere else or diagonally across the runway. It's not steady crosswinds that cause most problems - it's gusts when you are near or at touchdown.

I see one situation where I would routinely use wheel landings in my Maule: very rough terrain. There's no question that the main gear and tires are bigger and stronger than the tailwheel. The slower you plant the tailwheel on very rough terrain, the less damage you will do.

I think Maules are designed to favor 3-pointers. For one thing, the tail is very heavy and wants to drop as you get slower on final approach. I measured the weight on the tailwheel with full main tanks and no passengers or baggage - 250 lbs. That's heavy compared to a Citabria, Cub, Super Cub, Husky, etc. That puts more force at the end of the 25-foot long lever. Add a gusty crosswind and a large fuselage and empennage cross-section against which the wind can push and it's not too hard to see why a Maule might be hard to manage with the tail in the air.

I will have to respectfully disagree with several of your opinions.

You say you are applying light braking before touchdown, but will not brake in a wheel landing due to nose over.....? I can assure you that if you feel good about brakes before touchdown then braking in a wheel landing is easy. I brake hard with the tail high in the air.

IMHO the point of a wheel landing is not to touch down faster as you say. Most people, especially students, wheel land fast I will agree, but that is not the point. There are many advantages to wheel landing, but being fast is definitely not why I wheel land. Wheel landings can be very slow and very short.

I don't think Maules were designed to three point. I think all tail draggers were designed to sit at a certain attitude on all three wheels and to fly. They all fly, and sit on all three wheels when you go home, but the sky is the limit to the techniques that will work with each plane.

I think people talk themselves into all kinds of ideas. Like tailwheels are too hard to fly, so even though they would love a tailwheel airplane they settle for a nose wheel. I think the same is true of exploring other techniques, don't talk yourself into following the crowd, it's too crowded there.....

[DonMc]

We have been discussing our personal preferences and pet techniques here. I haven' heard anyone including myself discuss the aeronautical principle that supports the wheel landing verses the 3 point verses the Curplunk method. There is a group of Missionary Pilots that have printed a manual for their pilots. These guys land in the jungle, mountains etc all over the world. They fly Maules and Cessna taildraggers. If I can find my copy I will try and post it. I am sure Jeremy has one. I'll take the first shot and let the debate continue! The idea of landing an airplane is to quit flying and start rolling safely on the ground in the direction of the pilots choice. Landing on the wheels does a couple of things to help make this transition easier. First, with the tail high you have either zero or negative angle of attack. In the absence of lift, all the weight of the airplane is transfered to the main gear where the brakes are. This allows maximum braking for stopping and maintaining directional control in addition to rudder authority. When the tail stalls it will come down but your speed will below the power off stall speed of the wing. It would take a pretty strong gust to raise the wing. The toe out will force the gear to spread away from the fuselage with the weight on it and if is kept pinned to the ground, it can't get fold under. You can hold the center line with the tail up in more wind with brakes than can with it down because the tailwheel will caster if not supported by brake action even at a slow taxi speed. I watched the videos of the short landing at Valdez and noticed mostly wheel landings there. Very jealous of those that could attend in person

DonMc
N61516

[UP-M5]

you'll never understand the full potential of the type until you master the wheel landings.

i challenge the "kerplunk" crowd to land in under 200 feet.

none of the (somewhat nefarious) pilots in this short landing contest use 3 points. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3cFZh8wugk
of course the most important reason to wheel land is that "chicks dig it"