Recovery from a beginnig ground loop

[Bob Leve]

I'd like suggestions on what others do when a Maule (my M-5) starts to turn upwind on a cross wind landing. I recently landed full stall in a crosswind slip, touched the upwind gear first and when the lee gear came down the ship wanted to turn upwind. I managed to straighten it without too much trouble and probably used some brake. However, I was told not to use brakes as that would cause the ship to loop in the other direction. What do the rest of you guys do in that situation?

[belandd]

Use the brakes while holding the tail down and putting in aileron.

Remember, you are trying to keep the airplane from being damaged or destroyed so use everything you have as much as is needed.

Stand on those brakes if you need to. Get off them when you regain control.

[MikeW]

Absolutely. Do whatever you need to keep the airplane pointed the right way. Instructors that teach the "stay off the brakes" stuff are doing a disservice to the student, although many teach this more for self-preservation than anything else. Flying taildraggers requires more technique than a nose gear and a little brake at the right time is a beautiful thing. Sounds like you got the right idea. Keep flying regularly and after a while a lot of this will become second nature.

[Maximus]

I don't know if I would necessarily recommend this procedure but it worked for me... I tried aileron, brake, elevator and even screaming at my wife and I thought I was going to lose it, so at the last second I punched on the power and that straightened her out enough to regain control and then settle back down. I never quite understood why this happened other than a last second shift and burst in the cross wind. Anyway I got away with just a scraped wing tip- LUCKY!

[kakkenmc]

I'm a newbie, so someone please enlighten me if I'm an idiot.

Except on long paved strips, I routinely move both feet up to brakes within seconds of touchdown (after no bounce possibility remains) and tap-steer until I'm very slow. In my mind, I am ready to rapidly correct a groundloop as well as brake for a quick stop. I doubt I could move my foot in time (wouldn't the forces in a loop tend to pull the correcting brake foot off pedal?) because in the accounts I've read, ground loops can be unexpectedly fast and forceful.

I could do "power assisted" turns in my Champ, which were low speed, benign, controlled almost-groundloops. Otherwise, I've never experience a real one. I'm afraid Maule's loops may be more sudden and less benign.

One crosswind landing on a big grass field went fine until I was very slow. I was then unable to taxi in a straight line without brake support (15-20 mph xwind). I don't feel like the rudder is very effective on the ground compared with a Cub. Champ, Decathlon.

[Hogy59]

I've had my MX-7 about 4 years now, and had no tailwheel experience before I bought the Maule. The brake thing works ok, but it is not smooth. The easiest and most effective for me seems to be adding power once on the runway. That gets a nice blast of air over the rudder, and will quickly straighten the nose. If the nose doesn't come around like you want, you're already set up for a go-around. The stronger the crosswind, the less flaps I land with. Takes a little more runway, but the tailwheel is on the ground at a higher airspeed, giving you more steering ability.

[Kirk]

To really understand all the physics in taldraggers and the best flying advice I've read on it is "Taming the Taildragger", can't remember the authors name.

I've ended up tapping a brake before to straighten one out, but it's something you can only get away with in the early stages of a ground loop.

If you wait too long, and the airplane is going to far sideways, the back end of the airplane is going to come around even harder. Picture a tractor trailer jack knifing.

Practice, practice and grass is more forgiving than pavement.

Kirk

[a64pilot]

I don't know if this is true or not, but I have always been told that if the tail wheel get's beyond the main wheels track while at speed, she's coming around, your not stopping it.
I have also been told that if she's coming around, there is less damage done if you let it go as opposed to you fighting it when it comes around.
Both may be old wives tales, I don't know.
I have stopped a 14,000 lb Crop Duster with brakes from coming around, flat spotted a tire and left maybe a 50 black mark, close as I have been so far.
It's one club I don't want to be a member of.

[andy]

A brief, firm tap on the opposite brake before the ground loop gets too bad will keep the airplane under control. You've got to be ready for it and make it quick. Don't hold the brake or things will get worse in the other direction. If you touch down without any sideways drift, it's unlikely that a ground loop will occur unless you get a strong blast of crosswind. Watch the runway ahead of you and correct for sideways drift before touchdown. If you do touchdown with any sideways drift, especially on a high-friction surface like asphalt or concrete, Maule tails are relatively heavy and will try to whip around when the wheels grab. The spring coupling from the rudder to the tailwheel may not be enough to overcome that force even at full rudder deflection. Opposite brake is the only way to deal with it.

Andy

[Kirk]

I don't know if this is true or not, but I have always been told that if the tail wheel get's beyond the main wheels track while at speed, she's coming around, your not stopping it.
.

That is the scenario I am cautioning about on use of brakes.

Once the ground loop has progressed to the point that the CG is outside the track of the main wheels, any deceleration force, braking or soft ground, will force the the CG in the line of deceleration. If things are that far gone it will mean the airplane keeps going around. Saving it would take a shot of power to make the rudder more effective. At that point it may be better to just let it go. Or you might save it. Feeling lucky?

All that is easier to describe with a sketch.

Kirk

[plowboy]

I use the brakes early and often, way before I get to ground loop territory.

[DonMc]

I keep my heels on the floor and the ball of my feet on the lower crossbar of the Maule rudder pedal so I can't hit the brakes by mistake while applying rudder. If I need brakes, I raise my heels so my toes hit the top crossbar. The rudder pedal pivots between the top and bottom bar and makes for quick corrections. I use a burst of power in the flare to get the nose up if I come in slow with flaps or if the Xwind is strong, I use no flaps and tail low wheel landing. Once the upwind wheel touches, I reduce power and speed until the down wind wheel touches and then lower the tail using first brake on the down wind wheel and the both wheels if the nose is straight and things are going well until stopped. Starting on short final, I recite aloud the mantra Jeremey taught me "Hold the centerline(rudder). Kill the Drift(aleron) The only way I know of to stop a ground loop that can't be stopped with rudder input is to power up and come back to try again.

DonMc

[belandd]

Having joined the club of performing a ground loop in front of a major audience with a PA 20 and ending up shooting down the runway backwards before I ground looped again and got the nose pointing the right way (Talkeetna the first weekend after they paved it), I feel I know a little.

First and above all things, land straight down the runway. The airplane is going to go the direction the wheels are pointed when it touches down. If you are not straight then off you go into the weeds.

There isn't anything more important than this. Land straight.

Brakes, rudder and power may heolp correct a poor landing but only at low speeds and only if the minor correction is needed.

If you are landing on pavement at 50-70 mph and you are not straight then you are done and all you can hope for is minimum damage.

Rmember the tail wheel rule, Fly The Airplane until You Have It tied Down!

Have fun, that quick little PA 20 taught me more about flying tail wheel then any instructor or any other airplane I have owned since.

[YELLOWMAULE]

Boy, you've got that right Duane. I hear guys tell me all the time that the Maule is hard to fly because it's short coupled. There are three planes I've flown that are right there; an experimental BD-4 (worthless in my book) a C195, (wants to go around at a fast walk) and the TW Pacer is at the very top of the list with a wide margin. Great little plane but it makes the Maule feel like it's on rails in comparison. I'm sure there are others that merit this list but my experience is limited.
I was fortunate in my early TW training to have a great transition instructor. Before we ever got in the plane he drilled into my head that if for any reason it's not perfect feeling, throttle, correct and do it again. The moment the wheels are off the ground, you're flying again. Heels are never on the floor (busy feet). I've got myself into a couple of scrapes over the years and that early drilling has saved the plane a couple times and minimized the damage.
Oh, and the best behaved AC I've ever flown was one of this Instructor's. A Fairchild F-24 with the 145hp Super Scarab. She's a perfect Lady and has no bad manners.

[aero101]

First and formost is exactly as Duane stated, you've got to touch down lined up longitudinally with no drift, especially on asphalt. I try not to get near brakes in normal conditions, but if you've got a good gusty xwind going and you use up all the rudder, the only thing left is to dab the brake as needed, just be ready to dab the other brake in case you overcorrect. As for a go-around, I think that all depends on where you're at in the rollout? If at the very beginning right after touch down, a go round might be the best option, but once you've bled off the airspeed and reached that point where the air on rudder not too effective, I think the go round tends to make a bad situation worse and differential braking is the only option!! There might be other options too, such as another airport more into the wind, or even a taxiway might be an option? That's my $.02 cents worth anyway...