Recovery from a beginnig ground loop

[belandd]

I remember landing at Bradley Sky Ranch in the right hand seat while a friend was in the left seat and learning to fly his Stinson. A very mild landing airplane.

As we went off the runway across the grass I asked him where we were going. He said he had the rudder all the way in and it wouldn't turn. I said for him to hit the brake a little and he said that your not allowed to do that. Seeing that we were arount to run into parked aircraft I helped him out with a little brake action and steered us back on the runway.

The brakes help but only at low speeds and only if you are not into a ground loop.

I really like flying the Stinson and only picked the Maule over it because Stinsons don't have much room inside.

[maules.com]

When landing the old ww1 era planes, there were no brakes.
After ripping off a brake line or two in the bush, there are no brakes.
Float and Ski flying, there are no brakes. With forethought and action we land and taxi just fine without them.
Doing tailwheel and/or Maule transitions an exercise I used, was best done on a rainy day or on wet blacktop.
The runway had it's name painted in big white (slick) letters.
Short landings with alot of braking was the exercise.
Touchdown a few feet from the first letter, brakes on at touchdown on tarmac then at the P the tyres skid across the white line, then friction as left wheel goes through the loop of P and then you hit white paint again with left wheel but not with the right.
This intermittant traction and skidding left right or both presented an excellent opportunity to dance the foot pressures on rudder and brake pedals as you progressed down the length of the word with the plan to be stopped at the last letter A. There were 8 letters and the paint strokes were about 18". Lots of fun and it taught good rudder/brake pressure balance.

[crbnunit]

I have found you can carry a fair amount of throttle to help with air flow across the rudder and still stop just fine if you have the room. I have also pulled it back into the air and stabilized a foot or so above the runway before putting it back down. There are really several options that work, the trick is not getting stuck in the moment and letting things get too out of hand to correct... Says the guy rebuilding his plane.

[Sam Rutherford]

I am 'over' the brakes as I approach the ground, I don't hesitate for an instant to dab brake if unhappy at all. I keep the yoke fully back though!

Safe flights, Sam.

[Sugarbear]

I generally agree with everyone. I believe the key is how fast you are going and what surface you are on to know what is the best for the situation. If the plane is moving pretty good I would try to use full rudder and a blast of prop wash. Depending on the need, possibly light brake to help drag one side but not stop the wheel from rolling. Slow speeds and hard surfaces I'm all for anything it takes to keep it straight and get the plane stopped. Brakes and quick strong burst of power would be my plan. In all cases, I think pinning the tail is very important.

[Sugarbear]

When I bought my Maule I had 6 hours of tailwheel and 10 years of nosewheel in-between the two. It was about 15 hrs into flying my Maule when I had my epiphany that solved my taildragger landing problems. In case there is a pilot with the same problem, I think this is a good place to share my experience.

I was told to "stay ahead of the plane" and to be "quick at correcting the plane to keep it straight". So basically I was landing the plane and correcting the plane as needed. Trying to predict what the plane was going to do upon landing so i could "stay ahead of it" and "react quickly".

My light bulb moment was when I changed my mind set from correcting the plane to telling it what I wanted it to do. My target is to land straight and I am focused on me landing the plane straight and getting it stopped straight. I have released myself of the burden of focusing on correcting the plane after touch down. Now on my landings, I'm the driver and the plane is the passenger. It's not about reacting quickly, it's about not giving the plane choice in the matter.

It's a bit hard to explain and is probably obvious to the seasoned pilot, but it made a whole world of difference for me.

[belandd]

Sugarbear

You have it right, the same thing happened with my learning curve. When I decided to take charge and make the airplane do what I wanted it to do then I became the PIC!

[N9657]

I think sugarbear and belandd are right. You must never stop controlling the plane. This year I had to do my BFR in a rented plane and was amazed at how easy it is to land a trainer. You can just about line up and let it land itself. This is not true in the type of plane we are flying. While I took my tailwheel training from Ray Maule I have since found that full stall may not be the best in crosswind conditions. I am not afraid to touch down a little fast with slight down elevator after touchdown using rudder and if necessary brake to establish and maintain a straight track. I also sometimes carry a little throttle into the flare, this helps to keep everything straight just before contact.

[tworude]

I do NOT try to save it on the ground - my 235 pulls me straight instantly or I can be back in the air in very short order. I don't even think about using brakes until I bury the tail wheel and am slow. My mindset when landing is that I am going to do a touch and go - if all goes well I'll let it stay on the ground.

[Westberry]

When it come to landing I use everything if need be and going around is always an option, as long as the prop keeps turning. Holding the line and stopping drift come first, always be ready on the power, if touch down is good then next comes slowing down and here is where you may need to use everything. Rudder, brakes, power, brakes and rudder. I have had to use a lot of power, brakes and rudder just to taxi and keep it straight after landing.
The rudder will not run out with a prop blast, doing this while staying slow requires the brakes.

[Layne]

Runway lights are $45 to $80 depending where you are landing. They pop off very easy. I have found lots of asphalt is plenty wide enough for my Maule. I think everyone summed it up. Every landing is a different scenario in most tail draggers. Use all the tools and all the options. Honestly I am loving the wind in my M7. I am having harder time landing it when it's calm. Maule's generally loop in one direction. Call Brian at Maule to find out which way. He stocks the parts more for one side than the other. Isn't the saying, "there're those that have ground looped, and those that will"?

[greatplanes]

I have read this thread and noticed that no one talked about how to avoid a ground loop by useing the correct crosswind techniques. The big thing I noticed was keeping the ailerons in the correct position and to continue feeding them in as you slow down. If you release pressure, it feels like a gust of wind hit the tail. The aileron that is pointing down creates drag because it is createing lift, the other aileron that is pointing up and reduces drag and this helps keep your plane straight with less rudder. With the proper technique you may not need much rudder movment. I have landed in mild crosswinds that I controlled with the drag of the ailerons verses using the rudder ( very much ). I have landed in crosswinds with the sock straight out and never thought twice about it.
The closest I have come to ground looping was when this guy told me I should retract the flaps after touchdown in strong crosswinds, when I did that my head moved and changed my picture of the runway, also it changed the feel of the airplane by removing the drag of the flaps and changing the center of lift and I started to go around, just about dragged a wingtip. Luckly I was going fast enough that the rudder and ailerons were still effective, full left rudder, full right aileron and lean into the passenger seat.
All I can say is learn your plane and have some fun with it. It will do exactly what you tell it to do, and don't be asleep at the wheel!

[UtahMaule]

The aileron that is pointing down creates drag because it is createing lift, the other aileron that is pointing up and reduces drag and this helps keep your plane straight with less rudder. With the proper technique you may not need much rudder movment.

I have never thought of the effect the ailerons have like that..... But it makes perfect sense. I wheel land in crosswinds and if it is a good amount of wind I immediately roll in full aileron into the wind and it is amazing how little rudder is needed even in a stiff wind.