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MauleMechanic · Post by **MauleMechanic** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:24 am

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captnkirk · Post by **captnkirk** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:49 pm

You have the pull with the Forest service can we land there ? looks flat enough.
My extended gear are here just need to get the rest of the brakes and tires before I put them on.

VA Maule · Post by **VA Maule** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:32 pm

That would be my question after seeing the Appalachian Trail's proximity.

Post by **andy** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:11 pm

Looks like some drainage ditches that might get in the way but I haven't seen it up close - just Google Earth.

MauleMechanic · Post by **MauleMechanic** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:58 pm

MauleMechanic · Post by **MauleMechanic** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:06 pm

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crbnunit · Post by **crbnunit** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:26 pm

That is a beautiful area. If that is part of the national park, you can give up that idea right now. If national forest, maybe but doubtful. Agreed about the proximity to the Appalachian Trail. That is probably a deal breaker right there.

The only national park I know of that actually welcomes general aviation is Wrangell/St Elias here in Alaska though I have landed in Gates of the Arctic as well.

Andy Young · Post by **Andy Young** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:08 am

crbnunit wrote:That is a beautiful area. If that is part of the national park, you can give up that idea right now. If national forest, maybe but doubtful. Agreed about the proximity to the Appalachian Trail. That is probably a deal breaker right there.

The only national park I know of that actually welcomes general aviation is Wrangell/St Elias here in Alaska though I have landed in Gates of the Arctic as well.

I've landed all over Denail National Parl as well, with impunity. Unlike Wrangell-St. Elias, I would not say it's exactly welcome (other than on the glaciers on the south side) but I've never been harassed there either.

In the lower 48, however, I can't imagine being able to land off-field in a national park without serious legal consequences. My understanding is that the only reason we can in Alaska is due to concessions gained during the ANILCA negotiations.

MauleMechanic · Post by **MauleMechanic** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:38 am

MauleMechanic · Post by **MauleMechanic** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:49 am

still searching.....looks like still US Forest lands so I'll keep looking under federal regs

Andy Young · Post by **Andy Young** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:43 pm

I looked into the regs on landing on Forest Service land once years ago. What I found at that time is that there is no specific prohibition, but it can only be done with the written permission of the Forest Service office that controls that area. The Forest Service told me that getting such permission was extremely unlikely at best.

montana maule · Post by **montana maule** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:05 pm

I did some research on landing on Forest Service lands here in Montana. Outside of wilderness areas there is no regulation against it. But I was told I might be sited for environmental damage if I left ruts in a meadow or some other dreamed up infraction.

Post by **andy** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:19 am

Here's a really good treatment of recreational use back country airstrips from the Recreational Aviation Foundation in 2011: http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/n ... cLands.pdf. Pages 28 - 29 show a list of States and public airstrips with agreements for USFS to maintain back country airstrips. Idaho has a lot due to efforts by the Idaho Airmen's Association (of which I'm a humble member even though I live in NC). I joined back in 2012 when I attended Lori McNichols' Mountain Canyon Flying seminar in McCall ID (which I highly recommend). Unfortunately, States East of the Rockies don't seem to have any agreements.

crbnunit · Post by **crbnunit** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:33 am

Andy Young wrote:
crbnunit wrote:That is a beautiful area. If that is part of the national park, you can give up that idea right now. If national forest, maybe but doubtful. Agreed about the proximity to the Appalachian Trail. That is probably a deal breaker right there.

The only national park I know of that actually welcomes general aviation is Wrangell/St Elias here in Alaska though I have landed in Gates of the Arctic as well.
I've landed all over Denail National Parl as well, with impunity. Unlike Wrangell-St. Elias, I would not say it's exactly welcome (other than on the glaciers on the south side) but I've never been harassed there either.

In the lower 48, however, I can't imagine being able to land off-field in a national park without serious legal consequences. My understanding is that the only reason we can in Alaska is due to concessions gained during the ANILCA negotiations.

I specifically asked the rangers the last time I was in Denali. According to them, there are only two LEGAL landing sites inside the park. One is Stampeed and the other NW of there (can't find the strip now). I was assured that landing elsewhere in Denali, it being designated a "wilderness" park, would result in heavy fines. That said, that place is so frigging huge you'd probably have to land on the road in front of the park HQ just to get caught.

Andy Young · Post by **Andy Young** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:19 pm

crbnunit wrote:
Andy Young wrote:
crbnunit wrote:That is a beautiful area. If that is part of the national park, you can give up that idea right now. If national forest, maybe but doubtful. Agreed about the proximity to the Appalachian Trail. That is probably a deal breaker right there.

The only national park I know of that actually welcomes general aviation is Wrangell/St Elias here in Alaska though I have landed in Gates of the Arctic as well.
I've landed all over Denail National Parl as well, with impunity. Unlike Wrangell-St. Elias, I would not say it's exactly welcome (other than on the glaciers on the south side) but I've never been harassed there either.

In the lower 48, however, I can't imagine being able to land off-field in a national park without serious legal consequences. My understanding is that the only reason we can in Alaska is due to concessions gained during the ANILCA negotiations.
I specifically asked the rangers the last time I was in Denali. According to them, there are only two LEGAL landing sites inside the park. One is Stampeed and the other NW of there (can't find the strip now). I was assured that landing elsewhere in Denali, it being designated a "wilderness" park, would result in heavy fines. That said, that place is so frigging huge you'd probably have to land on the road in front of the park HQ just to get caught.

There's a lot of misinformation out there amongst the rangers. Keep in mind that most of them come from the lower 48, and are going by what they know to be true there. Also, most of them are seasonal, and their Alaska knowledge only goes so deep.

When I worked for an air taxi that is based deep inside the park (at Kantishna) I landed all over the place, both inside and outside the wilderness. This was after doing some research, and finding that the was no specific prohibition to doing so, and that ANILCA allowed it as a "traditional" Alaska activity. At least some of the rangers were fully aware of my actions, and they never indicated that doing so was not allowed. I have seen several float planes land on Wonder Lake, inside the wilderness area and right next to a ranger station. Occasionally, new rangers stationed there will get wound up about it. But when they check back with headquarters, they are told they can't do anything about it. This part is embarrassing, but I've bent my airplane twice (Scout, not the Maule) landing off-field in the park. Both times, the park helicopter came and picked me up, with a ranger aboard to investigate and write a report. Neither time did they indicate in any way that I wasn't supposed to be landing there, even though I told them that I had done so intentionally.

All of this is under private operations, in my own airplane. Commercial operations are a different story. Commercial operators are limited to landing at the park strip (at the entrance, by the train station); Kantishna; Stampede; and on any of the glaciers on the south side, as long as they are outside the wilderness. Also, landing at the park strip commercially requires a concession permit, though privately you can land there as much as you like.

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