ADS-B

..now in a separate topic for all of us who needs to make a decision which ADS-B System to get. I will be moving ADS-B topics into this section. If I missed some please send me a link via email to the ADS-B topic to ‚CK at forums url‘
Mountain Doctor
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ADS-B

Post by Mountain Doctor »

Just wondering what you all think? :?:

I have not figured out exactly what it does to benefit us, or how it works. Trying to figure out what it will cost I come up with everything from $1,000 to $10,000! :shock:

I can't help but think this is another Big Government Program For Our Safety... :roll:

Or a way to shift the cost of new infrastructure from the Feds to the small GA operators...
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Post by aero101 »

It's actually pretty neat, if your local ATC is set up to handle. In simple terms, uses GPS to max benefit, like reporting your position to ATC and other like equipped aircraft in non-radar environments (areas and altitudes that Mode S transponders don't function). Ability to download most current WX while in flight, etc, etc... $10K pretty cheap, and probably not the most hi tech out there... Double that for the complete sys witch includes PFD's that allow overlays with terrain, route, other traffic, HSI, VSI, Airspeed, Attitude, etc, etc, all on one screen. They gave systems to operators up here and paid installation costs several years ago when technology being developed, but don't see too many GA folks interested in upgrading even with good state sponsered finance programs? Expensive to install, updates required continuously in software, etc, etc... In my opinion, most useful in high traffic, low WX type areas where you have mix of scud runners, IFR flights in like equipped aircraft... I like the digital technology, but still way too pricey for my benefits!! Now if they wanted to give me the free deal, I'd be interested?
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Post by Mountain Doctor »

I may be screwed in 2020. :cry:

This will be a lot of money for a system that my airplane seems to fly fine without having right now...

I just have a VFR panel with a TSO'ed but VFR GPS (Garmin 250XL, IIRC) and a Mode C transponder (Garmin 327).

I assume the sub $1,000 portable ADS-B's won't meet the requirements to fly in controlled airspace?

So I may be looking at a ADS-B magic black box PLUS a Mode S transponder PLUS an IFR GPS PLUS the weight, complexity, antennas, installation, etc?

That would price me out of the sky.

Also without it my plane will lose a substantial amount of resale value on the used market.

I guess this is what happens sometimes in life but I think it's gonna suck. :x
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Post by Mountain Doctor »

I also assume my current Garmins will be worth very little on the used avionics market.
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Post by chris.johnson »

Wonder if I can trade my state of the art Loran that no longer works for an ADS-B

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Post by aero101 »

Actually, I seriously doubt that the ADS B will be instituted and required by 2020 and that that is more a pipe dream then anything. System is nice, but expensive, they have a lot of headway to make to even get it institituted on national level, and you can bet there will be waivers for us poor general aviation types... Several years ago when I started my 135 air taxi operation, Mode S transponder required, and I had to get waiver which boils down to when my current transponder replaced, will have to go Mode S... That was 10 yrs ago, and not sure that waiver is any longer even required?
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Post by Mountain Doctor »

I see your point... :wink:

The difference is that when GPS became available no extra expensive equipment was required for a Loran equipped airplane to operate in controlled airspace.
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ADS-B

Post by Mountain Doctor »

What are you guys doing?

Saving up? Making changes now? Keeping your current equipment and staying out of Mode C airspace? Praying for delays in implementation (that's my technique...)

Any clue what it's going to cost for the purpose of budgeting?
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Post by andy »

What I'd like to do about ADS-B and what I can afford to do are different things. I've done lots of research on this for myself and for work. If you already have a WAAS GPS, then you're about $10,000 ahead of the game. If not, that's the most expensive component, assuming you want to be able to do WAAS precision approaches in addition to satisfying the FAA's Jan 1, 2020 ADS-B-Out requirement. If you don't care about WAAS approaches, then you could get a Garmin GDL 88 978MHz Universal Access Transceiver with integrated WAAS GPS for $5K - $7K installed. With the current state of technology, that's about the least expensive way to go for ADS-B-Out. It's probably what I'm going to do until I can afford a Garmin GTN 650 WAAS GPS/NAV/COMM - if ever.

Without some kind of compatible display, there's no way to see ADS-B-In weather (FIS-B) and traffic (TIS-B) with just the GDL 88 installed but at least you'll be ADS-B-Out compliant. If you already have a non-WAAS Garmin GNS 430 or 530, Garmin will upgrade it to WAAS for $3,395. Then you can display ADS-B weather and traffic on separate pages on the 430W/530W by connecting it to the GDL 88. There's no need for the integrated WAAS GPS in the GDL 88 in this case, so you'll save about $1K on that unit. The downside of this approach is that you can't overlay the weather and traffic on the main map page. For that capability you'll need to replace your 430/530 with something like a Garmin GTN 650 for a mere $12,000 or so installed in addition to the $5K - $7K GDL 88. So if you decide to go this way, you'll have some slick technology that will last 10 - 15 years for around $17K - $19K. This is what I'd like to do but won't be able to afford without winning the lottery.

Let's say you already have a WAAS GPS like a GNS 430W and don't care about ADS-B-In weather or traffic. Then you could get by with replacing your transponder with something like a Garmin GTX 330 1090 Extended Squitter (ES) transponder connected to the WAAS GPS. That's the least expensive way to go if all you want is to be ADS-B-Out compliant. Then you could buy an iPad with Foreflight and the Stratus II ADS-B-In receiver for about $1,500 and $75 - $150 ForeFlight subscription per year to see FIS-B weather and TIS-B traffic. Garmin also makes a portable ADS-B receiver called the GDL 39 that works with Garmin Pilot software on the iPad for about the same yearly subscription price, but the GDL 39 won't work with ForeFlight.

Personally, I prefer XM Satellite weather's Aviator package and my portable Garmin GPSMAP 396, even though I have an iPad with ForeFlight. When you are on the ground and out of cellular data coverage, the only way you can get weather is by satellite. Once you are above about 1,500 AGL you could probably get ADS-B-In weather but there are still quite a few ADS-B coverage gaps across the USA. I fly in the mountains a lot and both cellular data and ADS-B are spotty or non-existent. That's why I keep paying for my XM satellite weather subscription.

I love the small size of the iPad and the amount of aviation data that it can hold and access through ForeFlight at an incredibly low price, but the iPad is not a ruggedized computer. It doesn't like to overheat in the summer. It can be frustrating to get the touch screen to work right in flight sometimes - especially in the winter when your hands are dry or you have gloves on.

If you wait another couple of years, the moratorium on FAA field approvals of WAAS GPS and ADS-B installations will probably be gone and maybe there will be more competitors in the field to bring prices down. Avidynes IFD440 WAAS GPS looks promising but has a ways to go before it gets FAA certification. Garmin is really the only game in town right now for a complete ADS-B solution. Don't expect Garmin's prices to drop much even with some competition, though. Ten years ago the GNS 430 cost about the same as it does today.
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Post by pilot »

I'm betting on a bunch more ADS-B/out solutions coming available in the next couple of years, as well as better coverage. The stratus receiver is super cool on the ipad,

http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/produc ... 7AodWW0AAA

-plus most people have a small backup display that will work fine with it - the iphone :)

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Post by aero101 »

I wouldn't look for ADS-B to be mandatory in any airspace in my lifetime, there's still a long road to go to equip ATC for national coverage. They only just recently got Anchorage and Fairbanks on line, and we started the ADS stuff up here in SE Alaska and along sections of west coast... With new national budget restraints, etc, etc, I think it's still good ways off yet? And before it can become mandatory, what are they going to do with the rest of the world?
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Post by Mountain Doctor »

Thank you Andy for a very thorough and comprehensive answer!

My plane is a factory equipped VFR model.

A Garmin 250 VFR GPS-comm and a Garmin 327 transponder. I have a panel mounted Garmin VFR only 396.

I don't need all the fancy ADS-B in gizmos. If I want weather my 396 will do that for me.

I remain hopeful for long delays in implementation and requirements.
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Post by VA Maule »

I just saw an add in EAA SportAviation page 21 for BendixKing KT 74. The add is claiming "plug-n-play" in the existing transponder tray :lol:

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Post by andy »

In my continuing research on ADS-B I talked to a local Garmin avionics shop last week. They told me that the GNS 430W/530W will display ADS-B-In weather received by a GDL 88 transceiver if you connect it to the ARINC 429 interface on the GNS 430W/530W rather than the RS-232 interface. Garmin's software in the 430W/530W and GDL 88 won't display traffic on the main map page of the GPS though. There's a separate traffic page. I'd rather have weather and traffic displayed on the main map page but it's not a major deal breaker. The new GTN 650 will do that.
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Post by Mountain Doctor »

This is so complicated!
:?
My plan for now is to fly and be happy. :D

I'll wait until the deadline and hope Big Brother drops the ball (good chance of this) and implementation gets delayed, hopefully for a long time. :evil:

If this turns out to be wrong, I'll stay out of ADS-B airspace (I can do this where I live) until prices come down and waiting lists for installation are shorter.
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