IO-540 Rust

[210TC]

This is what this form is all about. Learning!
Now lets try to figure out why and do something about this problem.
I can think of nothing more heart breaking than what has happened to Paul.
I lived in Florida for two years and I am scared to death to look inside my lycoming engine.
Something I have never read anything about is the year model engines and does this have anythng to do with corrosion?
The guy at the test cell told me that lycoming now subs out all engine componets for manufacture, they only assemble.

[Green Hornet]

I was a Quality Assurance Professional for 30 years in the semiconductor industry. I can attest that when sub-assemblies are farmed out to onshore or offshore subcontractors it takes a tremendous amount of incoming control. It would be interesting to see and trace the documented records connected to this engines manufacturing process & assembly process. This should not be difficult since the components have serial numbers and therefore traceable through the manufacturing steps via trace number. If it was my plane I would make the request to examine these records to Maule Quality Control CCing: B. Maule.

[flyer]

We are all assuming that Penn Yan sent the correct pictures and that there was not some sort of mix up or confusion. They do a lot of overhauls I think. You must question everything.

flyer

[maules.com]

Quality control is as good as the people performing it.
An IO540 oil pan on a new engine had a hole in the oil scavenge tube allowing oil out and thus air in. Did'nt find it till the plane went onto 31" tyres and oil leaked out with the new angle of repose. $5,600.00
New warranty oil pan arrived and on fitting it, it was found to have a wide crack (painted over) easy to see, in an intake tube. $5,600.00
These were returned to Lycoming and many weeks passed before the $11,200 were returned.
I attempted for months to track these 2 oil pans, via stamped s/n and casting marks which I photographed, through Lycoming. I merely wanted them to advise each of the inspectors (3 or 4, I did not fully ascertain) and the individuals, caster, machinist, finisher, prepman, painter, assembler and testcell manager. I was stonewalled at each move.
They did pay parts and labour, however, the parts disappeared.

This is only one incident where the returned parts disappeared without proper explanation of what had gone wrong.
I even had an engine returned that vaporised.
Liability rules.

[a64pilot]

I manufacture airplanes. As a manufacturer my Quality Control inspectors "buy in" engines from Pratt & Whitney. That is they ensure that the paperwork that came with the engine in fact is for that engine. That's it folks. If the darn thing was a different color, they probably wouldn't notice. As long as Maule properly stored and installed this engine, ran it in and test flew it, that is the limit of their involvment. They aren't going to have any traceability for the engine subcomponents, and frankly, Maule is a small manufacturer, they don't have the clout say that Cessna does.
From what I can see, it appears that in fact there was some corrosion in this engine. Has Lycoming been contacted? What was their comment? Did they want the engine sent to them?

[zuelke]

Saying that PennYan may have sent photos of the wrong engine is ridiculous. What are the odds of that really happening?

Lycoming has been contacted. I spoke with the rep in Seattle as well as the one at their main office. Both said the same thing - "You have a corrosion problem caused by the low oil temperatures." Lycoming denies any responsibility and says it is my fault because I operated the engine with oil temperature below 180 degrees. I explained that I have the oil cooler blocked off and they say that makes no difference because it is bad cowl design that is over cooling the engine. Maule says their cowl design is fine and this problem is not happening with other IO540's in Maules delivered before and after mine. It's hard to argue that point.

I am, of course, in the middle and effectively powerless. I can sue Lycoming and Maule but the attorney bills would be huge and there is no reasonable chance of success. I cannot afford to have my engine shipped all over the country - or even from PennYan to Lycoming - and put up with the huge delays that would be involved in getting an engine back in my plane and getting me back to flying.

I have already instructed PY to start the cylinder plating and reassembly process and I will have my engine back in N103PZ before the first of July.

My most significant concern is that I have an engine that has been operated under virtually perfect conditions and it has nevertheless rusted significantly in only 700+ hours. The engine will be repaired, reinstalled, and operated in exactly in the same manner as it has in the past. Is it going to rust out in another 700 hours??

While I appreciate the many comments and the obvious concern about my situation, the fact remains that I have no hard information that is actionable. Basically, it seems to me that I'm screwed!

Oh well, it probably won't be the last time.

PZ

[a64pilot]

Paul,
My opinion is that unless you raise the oil temp to at least 180 you may have problems in the future. Using an oil formulated for corrosion prevention and cutting your oil change interval in half will certainly help. My feeling is that the oil temp is the "wild card", it's what makes your engine different from most of the others out there. I don't remember is yours an O or an I/O? I ask because the cooler is mounted different, and I believe the O's cowling has a cooling lip built into it whereas the I/O doesn't. I have also seen an aluminum baffle fabricated that blocked off most of the air from escaping from the cowling and kept everything at a normal temp, but assumed you only had to resort to such measures in really cold, like Artic conditions.
Funny how I'm crying about oil temps too high and you can't get yours high enough.
I wonder what the odds are in getting a cockpit adjustable oil cooler door similar to a carb heat door field approved?
On edit: I guess the title of the thread tells me the type of engine, Huh?

[flyer]

Paul

When someone is only trying to help and you describe their idea as ridiculous, it is rude and non productive. I think you should welcome all ideas even if you do not agree.

Most people have a hard time thinking outside of the box.

When Lycoming ships new engines, they are internally coated with protective stuff. It was not rusted when it left Lycoming.

Maule installs and runs the engine. The odds of it being rusted when you received it is ridiculously low. Maule makes a great aircraft.

The operation of your engine was close to perfect. I do not think you could have caused moderate rust. I think moderate rust would have shown up in the oil analysis.

Sherlock Holmes would have looked at this and said: "It is elementary my dear Watson". It is a process of elimination.

Your engine did not have moderate rust at the time of the prop strike.
That is the only explanation that makes any sense.

I do not have enough information to know what went on after the prop strike. The emporer has no clothes.

I do agree with you that you ARE SCREWED.

FLYER

[zuelke]

I'm sorry Flyer - my comment was not a personal attack. It is just not conceivable to me that a company with PennYan's reputation would do such a thing purposely or have such screwed up systems that they could send photos of the wrong engine.

My mechanic, David Shapiro in Three Forks where my plane is based and who owns two Maules, is going to work on some sort of air damming device that will get my oil temps up and it looks like I will be changing oil every 25 hours and using, perhaps, a different oil.

[a64pilot]

That other Maule web site, that no longer exists, www.flymaule.org , had an article complete with pictures etc on exactly how to make what you are describing. Maybe somebody has that article?

[Green Hornet]

I can't say I am shocked but the FAA + NTSB do not have Quality standards?
Jody Do you have ISO 9001, or 9002 requirements? Why are there serial numbers on every part? I get what Jeremy is saying that it is a stone wall of denial and a battle with corporate lawyers but is there no organization that will stand up for the buyer? AOPA/ EAA?
http://avn.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=fimo/qab_index
Call this guy and ask him what can be done?
Somebody other than a personal lawyer to challenge Lycoming ? After all the end product effects human life. When a chip is made that goes into a heart pace maker there are reams of criteria and inspection. Hell when we made a chip that went under the hood of a automobile there more stringent requirements but when we made a circuit for manned flight the requirements for quality & reliability were even higher. The paper work that is bought into is the beginning of the search. If an incoming Quality Control is required then it is a regulation and therefore there are required traceability inputs on those documents. You ask your QC guy is he was ever audited or was asked for records on a certain engine? Paul I would not be dismissed so easily you are owed a through investigation as to root cause. It is par for the course to finger point and put up barriers. Continue with your plan but demand an explanation other than it is your fault! If you can't ship the engine then document, take samples of "rust" etc. Lycoming should want to know the root cause and at their expense. The FAA can break down the first wall of defense and know whether or not you are getting BS. There may be another case just like yours!!

[a64pilot]

There are no ISO requirements to manufacture an airplane. Honestly meeting ISO doesn't have a thing to do with how good an airplane you'd build. There are traceability requirements to build an airplane though. Every rivet, screw etc. that goes into an airplane can be traced back at least to it's manufacture, more critical items can be traced back to the particular "heat " that the steel that it was made from, came from.
Manufactured parts that we buy, the traceability is not provided to us, thankfully, or otherwise there would be a file for every Cleveland wheel etc. that came through here. The records are maintained by the manufacturer of the part.
You guy's keep jumping around. You blame Maule, Quality control, Lycoming, outsourced parts etc. I understand your need to place blame, but come to grips with the fact that this engine was in operation for three years and was operating perfectly when it had a prop strike. It wasn't until it was taken apart that the corrosion was found. To me it doesn't look like much corrosion, certainly not enough to warrant replacement or plating of the cylinders, in my opinion anyway.
If it were me, I'd mike everything, I bet it is all within limits, replace everything that is called out to be replaced in the Lycoming SB for overhaul, and It's been overhauled. That is a lot less parts than you might think. I mean I'm sure it's getting new rings, and bearings anyway. You'd be surprised how close to overhaul it is now. The catch of course is that I do my own work and can sign it off, I assume you can't.
When I overhauled mine the roller tappets weren't certified, but I think they are now. Instead of plating the cylinders, I would ask what it would cost to install a roller cam. I'm not even sure that is possible, but asking is free.
My opinion is that this rust problem isn't as bad as you have been led to believe, whether or not this is from an attempt to sell cylinder plating or not, you will have to decide.
Cylinders and cams, tappets etc. are made from very high carbon steel. Get an old one, de-grease it and it will rust overnight. Sandblast a piece of 4130 steel tube to get it to bare metal, hold it in your hand and tomorrow your finger prints will be rusted into the metal.
I think this rust came from moisture in the engine, and the engine heat wasn't high enough to drive it off. I think oil analysis didn't catch it, because there isn't much to catch.
I know it's hard, but try to look at this in a positive way, some of it will be covered by insurance and you have been alerted to a problem before it became critical. Kind of like catching cancer early. If this had been allowed to continue for a couple of more years, then it may have been so bad that you would have to replace all of the steel parts in the engine.

[Lowflybye]

I know it's hard, but try to look at this in a positive way, some of it will be covered by insurance and you have been alerted to a problem before it became critical.

The only things covered by the insurance would be parts damaged and the labor to fix them as a result of the strike. Normal wear & tear (rust) is not covered in a standard policy. IF it can be proven that the rust occurred while in PY's possession (which is entirely possible) then their insurance should kick in as the engine was in their care, custody, and control. The key to that lock will be proving that the rust was not in the engine prior to PY taking delivery of it.

Just because PY has a great reputation does not make them immune to accidents or mistakes...all shops make them which is why even your best shops have insurance. One trait that makes a good shop great is the way they handle their accidents / mistakes when one occurs.

Just my .02

[210TC]

One question I wanted to ask? Was the engine pressure washed with the exhaust off?
I have never heard anyhting but good about PY.
I am going to go along with the oil temp being one of the problems. I just have never had a temp problem on non-diesel engines.
It would be nice to find out from others if placing a cover on the exhaust/breather sometime after shut-down will pay dividens.
Maybe, someone at lycoming has an answer on that????
We may find a solution!

[Green Hornet]

There are no ISO requirements to manufacture an airplane. Honestly meeting ISO doesn't have a thing to do with how good an airplane you'd build. There are traceability requirements to build an airplane though. Every rivet, screw etc. That goes into an airplane can be traced back at least to it's manufacture, more critical items can be traced back to the particular "heat " that the steel that it was made from, came from.
Manufactured parts that we buy, the traceability is not provided to us, thankfully, or otherwise there would be a file for every Cleveland wheel etc. that came through here. The records are maintained by the manufacturer of the part.
You guy's keep jumping around. You blame Maule, Quality control, Lycoming, outsourced parts etc. I understand your need to place blame, but come to grips with the fact that this engine was in operation for three years and was operating perfectly when it had a prop strike.

Actually Cessna has AS/EN/ JISQ9120 requirement for a Quality System and military analysis testing requirements that are more stringent than the ISO 9000 Quality system requirements. And I beg to differ with your statement that "it has nothing to do with building an airplane."It has every thing to do with building an airplane. Design control and ECN control, process controls and inspection to the spec controls. Frankly perpetuating this negative attitude towards quality systems is counter productive and not valid. Jody the very things you mentioned time, temp, envionrment are all parts of a Quality System of achieving ISO or AS/EN/ JISQ9120
systems approval. You could not be more wrong.
Please review the very through controls placed on and by CESSNA on vendors and manufacturing.
https://www.supplier.cessna.com/quality/cqrs.pdf
I am certain that these requirements are required throughout the industry.If not to be competitive to at least meet industry standads. I don't think anybody on this forum has blamed anyone. We are examining the facts and trying to offer Paul some suggestions. Lycoming and Maule have been no help at all but to go into defensive denial mode, the first barrier of defense. Actually Paul seems to have resigned himself to bite the bullet but the amount of "rust " on the engine parts is perplexing and at this point root cause is speculation. There are test available to perform a failure analysis on these engine components to determine the root cause. Lycoming has an FA lab fully staffed and could care for this customer complaint. It is customer satisfaction and their reputation at stake.
Paul IMHO you should keep all the parts replaced and demand a failure analysis via the FAA if Lycoming and or Maule won't perform. Like I said this may have happened in the past. Granted the prop strike is on Paul but as a customer of a new aircraft he certainly deserves
a scientific response so he knows how to prevent in the future. I haven't heard anything that tells me he won't have the same problem 3 years from now.