Cell phone activated engine preheat

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captnkirk
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Post by captnkirk »

I need a preheater looks like the Rieff systems is about the easiest to deal with in my world. The good news is I don't need the cell phone controller I can walk to the hanger just as easy. I flew over to gbarrier's place today but spent most of the morning with a little space heater blowing into my cowl trying to warm things up. By the time I got the engine warm the temp had climbed to the mid 40's from our 19 degree overnight. I have a propane heater one of those small construction types but was afraid to use that. Now if I had a heated hanger ....
I read this book to my grand kids it's " if you give a Mouse a Cookie" , I feel like I'm in the middle of that story. :roll:
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Post by andy »

It's not Alaska but it was 23F at the hangar yesterday. I tried to fire up my Red Dragon propane pre-heater but it wouldn't ignite. The spark was good but something is wrong with the gas flow. I suspect spiders have built a web or cocoon somewhere that I can't see blocking a gas jet. I keep telling myself to keep the thing in its bag to avoid this problem but I always forget. It might also be a bad gas valve.

Anyway, I'm temporarily back to my Northern Companion pre-heater. I think the propane fired pre-heaters are quicker to set up and use. They certainly put out much more heat and air flow. Most of the industrial ones that you can buy in the hardware store can't be connected to ducting since the restricted air flow builds up heat quickly and their safety sensor shuts them down. They also put out too much heat to safely duct it into your engine compartment without damaging paint or tubing.

A while back before I had the Red Dragon I put together a duct adapter consisting of 8-6-4 round duct reducers on a stand that could be moved in front of a propane space heater without restricting the air flow so much that it would shut down. I'm thinking that I could bolt a frame to the front of the heater duct with an adjustable baffle that allows some outside cold air to mix with the hot air before it enters the SCAT tubing. That might prevent thermal shutoff of the heater and drop the air temperature enough to pipe it safely into the bottom cowling.

Does anyone know of an inexpensive propane-fired forced air heater that can be connected to 4" SCAT or SCEET tubing without the above problems?
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Post by gbarrier »

A heated hangar would be a wonderful thing. Right now guess I need to work on electricity to the hangar first. Remote preheater wouldn't do much good if I had to go there and start the generator first. Doesn't help that I have two airplanes sitting up there in a pretty open hangar due November annuals.

We always used Red Dragons in the charter business. Wish I had kept one. They got the job done but I too think a simple propane blower would be nicer.

When I went to pick up my Maule last January they were having unseasonably cold weather with temps in single digits overnight. It had 50W oil and one could hardly feel the compression when you pulled it over due to the drag. The guy who checked me out suggested I go buy a ceramic heater and duct tape it under the cowl the night before we were to fly. I was a little afraid of leaving it overnight but it worked fine.

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Post by captnkirk »

Gary you have a little more air flow thru your hanger than I do I have up a third side. I used that propane heater one year during an annual on my citabria but keep it far enough away to provide heat but not do any damage. I don't have a lot of power out there just a single circuit for a small compressor , battery charge and soon some preheat. Andy my little weather station said 19 at my place overnight. I would figure you would be lower in the hills. I'm getting some of my timber thinned and they are going to cut some clearway at the north end should ease the approach a good bit. come by take a look..
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Post by andy »

I'm home today due to the rain, low visibility and low ceilings making for low IFR. No self-respecting fire would start in this kind of weather. Not good enough weather to go flying out to your place, Kirk, but later this week the weather sounds good. Are you going to be around?

I'm looking for a lower cost pre-heater solution than the Red Dragon. It's a great unit but a new one is over $500. I'm going to stick with the propane forced air type since they're quick, do the job well and don't cost a lot. They also don't produce any carbon monoxide. I had a kerosene space heater that I used for a while but it set off all my CO detectors and wasn't fun to be around while running. I was surprised that my Red Dragon doesn't produce any detectable CO, but my CO detectors verified it. I know that CO is a by-product of the incomplete combustion of propane (either too lean or too rich), so maybe the better propane heaters lean the mixture of propane and air to a proper 1:24. They also don't choke you with the fumes. I'm considering the $180 Mr. Heater MH125FAV. It has an adjustable heat control to limit the output to 75,000 BTU. Has anyone used it?
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Post by gbarrier »

My son has a Mr. Heater look alike at about 50,000 btu so that means I have one. I should try to affix a duct. Sounds like red dragons are a little out of my price range. Their onboard battery would be a little better till I get some power back there. Lets see, start the generator, turn on the propane, fire up the mr. Heater. Yea, that's about how I do things. Remote switch just won't quite cut it for that.

Wanted to wait till I got some concrete back there to talk about electricity and closing in a couple more sides but perhaps this nasty day is the time to call the electrician.

BTW, anybody using electric oil pan heaters. I know warming the oil is the way to do it right. We always just blew warm air from the dragon onto the cylinders so the fuel would vaporize and fire then warmed up slowly. It was a fire them up, pat them on the butt, and push them out the door situation and we got by but would like to treat the personal bird a little better.

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Post by captnkirk »

Andy I'm on call till Saturday (weekend off) so it's hit or miss but we are cutting some timber so you can bring the state bird and check for hotspots. :wink: I've ordered a reiff system after that last cold snap I'm with Gary I've started some aircraft in the cold but I don't want to put the wear on mine. I've got a short some where in the line out to the hanger it showed up in this rain. I have a splice in the buried wire so I quess that is where it is. I didn't want to buy a roll for the 275 ft that I needed, now I need to dig it up and see if I can fix it.
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Post by andy »

Flame Engineering said that I can ship them my Red Dragon and they will inspect it to determine the problem and then call me with an estimate of the repair cost. They only charge for parts and shipping, not labor.

However, after several hours of Internet research, I also ordered a Dyna-Glo Deluxe RMC-FA60DGD 30-60K propane heater with continuous ignition. I'm going to try and connect it to a reducing duct adapter and a length of 4" SCAT tubing. I may have to modify the duct reducer to include an adjustable fresh air baffle to keep the unit from going into thermal shutoff. I'll post pictures if I can get it working. I like the idea of continuous ignition rather than a pushbutton piezoelectric mechanism - less effort.
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Post by captnkirk »

I have one similar it's 60k btu I used it when I was building my house and in the garage it puts out a lot of heat. I think you will need some way to temper the air flow for sure. If you have an enclose hanger you could probably just point it at the engine and adjust distance as needed. I'm just afraid of over heating hoses or wiring with out adding some fresh air. Like I said earlier I used it in a t hanger to warm us while we did an annual.
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Post by rjb »

I do have a cell phone activated relay that can turn on power. It was fun to figure it out, wire it up and use it.

I also have a county that charges me what I consider a lot for a hangar, $530 /month triple net, with not much county presence, Sunday through Wednesday supposedly- something about pensions, retirement, blah blah blah, unable to staff, and a county that pissed off the FAA by objecting to approved skydiving ops which means that funds to maintain the airport have been missing for years.

My input from the net and possibly Aviation Consumer, seems to indicate that keeping the engine pre-heater on (Rieff) and heating the plane interior with a ceramic heater was a good thing.

Since activating the heaters the night before requires some coordination on my part (making sure the link is active and remembering to do it) and sucking up as much energy (limited to 15 amps) as I can for my monthly fee is attractive (because the rates keep increasing every year), I cover the plane and connect the heaters without worrying about when I am going to fly.

If I were really pissed off, I would remove the prop, engine, and cabin covers to use as much electricity as possible. Hmmm.

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Post by Mountain Doctor »

You are lucky to have a hanger at any price in the Bay Area.

When I lived there the waiting list at HWD was 20+ years... I was able to use some connections and keep my Cessna (that I had at the time) in a corner of an executive hanger with a Chancellor and a few other planes. I don't remember what it cost but even that in the mid-late 1990's it was in the $300/month bracket.
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Post by andy »

I have some information that might help others who are trying to use a propane pre-heater like the Dyna-Glo Deluxe RMC-FA60DGD 30-60K propane heater with continuous ignition that I bought. I like the heater but it doesn't work when you try to attach ducting directly to it.

I knew from experience that the thermocouple in this type of heater would shut down the propane flow if it is connected directly to a SCAT tube because the temperature builds up quickly due to the air flow restriction. So I constructed a baffle consisting of a vented duct reducer using a 7"-6" reducer and a 5"-4" reducer with 1/2" metal spacers bolting them together. That created a 1/2" air gap around the 5"-4" reducer to reduce the air pressure and temperature.

The heater will not ignite with the reducers installed. If I ignite the heater first and then install the reducers and SCAT tube, it runs for a while and then shuts down. It works fine if I take the reducers and SCAT tube off the heater nose and move them about 2" away. That reduces the temperature at the thermocouple enough to prevent it from shutting down the propane flow.

The Red Dragon is designed to directly connect to a 4" 90 degree metal elbow and then to the SCAT tube. They probably use a thermocouple with a higher operating point and they might also have a faster airflow. So far the Red Dragon looks like the best way to pre-heat with a propane system.

Anyway, the Dyna-Glo works well as long as the duct is moved about 2" away from the front of the heater, so I'm going to build a different duct adapter with an 8"-6"-4" reducer arrangement on a movable stand to make it simple to move it the right distance away from the heater output. It's easy to tell when the duct is too close to the heater since the flame starts elongating. There's still quite a bit of air flow into the engine compartment, but it helps to use an insulated engine blanket like a Kennon cover. Until I get the Red Dragon back, this arrangement pre-heats the engine much more quickly than an electric heater since it produces more air volume and heat.

I'll use the Dyna-Glo to heat the hangar up around the airplane even after I get the Red Dragon back. I checked the carbon monoxide output with a sensitive electronic detector and couldn't see any, but I'll leave the hangar door open a little just in case.
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Post by LT4247 »

We have tried them all, even home made ceramic and kersene heaters.
The best we found is the AERO-THERM electric heater. It is expensive but is a fine product with thermostat controlled heat we leave on all the time in temps below 35f. It heats the entire engine and components. Everything stays 70f and ready to go.

It is made to hang off the prop but we put it on a stool and run the hot tube under the engine and the suck tube out a front inlet. I can take photos if anyone wants them. oh, i bought our Aero Therm in new condition off the red board classifieds for half of retail IN THE SUMMER! 👍😆😎

Had it 4 years now and if it broke i would go buy another one!!
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Post by mountainflyer »

Thanks for your recommendation but what are the "red board classifieds". Searched it but no luck.

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Post by Mountain Doctor »

LT4247 wrote:We have tried them all, even home made ceramic and kersene heaters.
The best we found is the AERO-THERM electric heater. It is expensive but is a fine product with thermostat controlled heat we leave on all the time in temps below 35f. It heats the entire engine and components. Everything stays 70f and ready to go.

It is made to hang off the prop but we put it on a stool and run the hot tube under the engine and the suck tube out a front inlet. I can take photos if anyone wants them. oh, i bought our Aero Therm in new condition off the red board classifieds for half of retail IN THE SUMMER! ������

Had it 4 years now and if it broke i would go buy another one!!
I am also an Aerotherm advocate. I have a 9 year old model that I have used all winter every winter and it continues to work well enough.

I also use mine like you use yours, which is different from the directions.

The Maule uses a center baffle separating the cylinder banks so the standard method gives uneven heat, and I was concerned about too much heat on the paint.

I shove the hot air hose up the cowl between the exhaust pipes as far as it goes. I made a 'Y' pipe adapter to collect the circulated warm air from both front inlets, then back to the unit for re-heating.

On days when it is 30 degrees in the hanger (about as cold as it gets around here) the CHT's, EGT's, and oil temps are all 100 degrees, +/- 5 degrees. Good product.
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