Weather and global warming

In response to a few member who like to post and read sometimes on the Maule forum something unrelated to Maules and flying, you may use this section. Plz keep it still non-offensive and clean and adhere to the agreement you accepted by becoming a member.
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Andy Young
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Post by Andy Young »

Green Hornet wrote:I knew I'd get a bite but you missed the point, Secure the Borders, Enforce current Law, then lets discuss this emotional, heart string ploy to make them all citizens! Even you can't be against deporting the criminals and make it so they can't get back in the country! Its not like we don't have plenty of down & out citizens to cry our hearts out over? The system in broken on purpose in order to create Voters! We don't need comprehensive Immigration Reform we just need to enforce current Law with human kindness over flowing... Can we also have one blend of gasoline is that asking to much? Can we make Solar Panels cost effective that are reliable & not made in China? Can we tear down the protected species Bird killing windmills? Can we give the farmers back their water & stop this idiotic bait fish lunacy. People are hungry all over the world & the CA. basin is a Dust Bowl, all for some Zealot who thinks a bait fish is more important. Species have come & gone its called survival of the fittest. I believe Darwin is a name that is familiar! Also for crying out loud stop the betrayal of our Warriors from rules of engagement, retreat without a SOFA to VA hospital corruption ! End the damn IRS and get a flat tax. How about removing some corrupt politicians like Hillary from the Narrative? How do you like me so far? Just Stirring the pot! ;)
I agree that the immigration system is broken on purpose, but it's not to make more voters; its to provide more poverty-wage workers. The reality is that we rich, white people (yes, most all of us are comparatively rich on a world scale) couldn't have such inexpensive food if not for undocumented agricultural workers. They are far more victimized by our system than our system is by them. And yes, they could decide to just not come over, but it's also true that as bad as it is for them when they get here, it does represent a real possibility of improvement for them compared to home. More power to them. Those people work harder than most citizens of this country, and we all benefit from it. Latin American immigrants also assimilate faster (usually by the second generation) and are statistically highly-contribution members of society. Are there some bad apples? Of course, and I support dealing with them appropriately. But if their only crime is being in the U.S. undocumented, that is no crime at all in my eyes. Remember, the ancestors of most of you came here uninvited as well.

You argue for not worrying about a fish species so we can use more water, and yet you want to tear down windmills to save bird species. Hmm....that sort of hypocrisy makes you sound like you just have a knee-jerk reaction to anything that might be labelled "progressive", or supported by Democrats, instead of critically examining the arguments for each issue on their own merits. Perhaps I'm not giving you enough of the benefit of the doubt; I'm open to being corrected on this.

The water problem won't go away by ignoring that fish, by the way. We are most likely beyond the long-term carrying capacity of the western watersheds due to having too many people living in places that are too dry, exacerbated by the drought, which may very well be related to anthropogenic climate change.
This is truly a tough one to solve, as it really just requires that there be fewer of us, living more sustainably (which might include moving out of the deserts).

Flat tax, eh? You really want to pay the same rate as some guy that makes 15 million a year? You really think some poor stiff working his a$$ off for minimum eagle should? Here's my idea: a true progressive tax, with rates increasing with raw income, and no deductions for anything. You want to have kids? Fine, you pay for them, the same way that I decided to pay for all the things I wanted. Same if you buy a house, invest in a business, or whatever. Deductions by-and-large favor the wealthy, and to a much lesser degree the middle class. The working class and the poor get no benefit from them at all any more. Getting rid of loopholes (deductions) completely is the only way to get the wealthy to pay their fair share. Doing so should allow lower rates for most of the people that have been paying their fare share all along, including most of the middle class.

I'm with you on getting rid of corrupt politicians, which is most likely most of the ones we have now. Campaign finance reform, term limits, and limiting corporate influence in government will be required. The logical place to start (and it's just a start) is with overturning the horribly mis-named "Citizens United" ruling.

And I thought I was done with this thread...
;)

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Post by Green Hornet »

I didn't think I would have to state the obvious but I was being sarcastic. The fish/ bird thing was to show how hypocritical & out of control this "save the species du jour is today. Like the Mercury filled light bulbs, the food staple fuel, the electric car that inevitably down the line uses oil to make electricity, the bait fish that creates a dust bowl so the Mexican farm laborers have no place to work. The windmill kills protected species but that is over looked by the save the species du jour. If an individual kills a protected species you're fined & possibly imprisoned. Is that not Hypocrisy ? I know the windmills are here to stay until another ludicrous mind fart takes hold. I'm just pointing out the absurdity like all the knee jerk solutions to a made up crisis that is really a political crisis used to steal tax dollars. You attack me for not critically examining the particulars missing the point that the "solutions" are making the perceived problem worse. They are not "Solutions" they are an absurd Omniscient like approach supported by corrupt judges. As for the Tax thing the points you make are good ones & are incorporated into some tax reform plans. However the flat tax, the fair tax or a reform tax whatever we can agree on to some extent means a reform to the current IRS. I'm willing to listen to all ideas as is most of the rational honest tax payers. Why would you think you were through nothing has changed it only gets worse because the solutions are part of the problem! That is my point. Your tone is as if the solutions implemented to the Climate Change Crisis have accomplished anything. For the past 7 years it has been all in on the Progressive solution. The Global temps haven't changed & the perceived problem solutions have resulted in unintentional consequences ( talk about the benefit of the doubt being given). That continue as if they haven't happened because the subject is closed! Right? There is only one reason to be done with this thread. As always it is an exercise in futility to reason with the closed minded...
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Post by Andy Young »

You're right; I did miss the sarcasm. That's one of the problems with written correspondence: it's hard to get tone sometimes. In any case, my apologies.

You're also correct that there is plenty of hypocrisy in how this stuff is done. That's unfortunate, but likely inevitable. There is no monolithic entity in charge of envy aspect. Making and implementing policy in a democracy is a messy process in any case. In this one, we are talking about dozens or hundreds of governments, from the federal level on down through the states and municipalities, each with multiple agencies. And that's all just in the U.S.!

I'm not surprised that you haven't seen any results from all of the efforts so far. From my perspective, very little has actually been done, except for a lot of talking and foot-dragging, so why would we see results? The scientists I know are very frustrated; they feel like they've been jumping up and down and pointing at a fire, while all of the policy makers are standing around planning meetings to talk about whether or not there is a fire, and if there is, what's the best way to fight it, and how to do so without giving any of them advantages over others, etc. etc. Meanwhile the house burns down. I know you don't agree that the house it burning, but it seems we do agree on the fact that little has changed since this has been talked about, so I thought I'd share that viewpoint.

I don't think this was all cooked up to make money; there is a lot more money to be made by continuing business as usual, at least in the short to medium term.

Good point on the electric car thing; I've been making that one myself for many years. It's especially true in the west, where most of the power comes from old, inefficient coal plants. The hybrids bother me too: they get all righteous about 45 mpg or so. A 1977 VW Rabbit Diesel got 50 mpg (as do the new ones) so what has been gained over the last 40 years?
That said, if we get more power from wind/solar, then the pure electrics have a real environmental advantage.

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Democracy?

Post by TomD »

Making and implementing policy in a democracy is a messy process in any case
The USA is a republic and was set up to elect representatives to carry out our wishes at the governmental level, which at the time of the founding made sense due the distances involved which made a true democracy (one person one vote) difficult. Explain the fairness of the winner take all electoral college process at the state level.


Unfortunately over time the system has been subverted by well funded special interests. The previously cited "Citizens United" decision coupled with the certification of corporations as "people" has pretty much gifted the 1% control of the country for the foreseeable future. Seriously, in what fair world can a government take your property under eminent domain in order to sell it to a Walmart of similar company to gain more tax revenue.

Our Presidential candidates make pilgrimages to billionaires to get their "blessing" and funding prior to running. Without this support they have no chance. Where does that leave me and the others here that are not billionaires? Can anyone with a straight face tell me there is no "pro quid quo" in this arrangement and the elected officials will not "dance with the ones that brung 'em" ?

Whether you like the subject or results or not you have to admire Ireland which has the ability to have a national referendum on an important subject and over 60% of the population GOES TO THE POLLS. When was the last time the USA had a 60% turnout and most places all we have to do is fill out a ballot at home and mail it.

Our infrastructure is crumbling, our rail system is close to third world status, and we don't seem to have a "representative" government willing to take on the big issues because it might cause pain to their funding sources.

I fear for the Republic!

Sorry this soap box got way higher than I meant it to.

TD

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Post by Green Hornet »

Well I'll be a whatchamacallit... Andy I believe you can be saved from the Automatons. Like I said before I'm all for clean air, rivers, streams & doing what we can about SMOG. It's the CO2 that smells like a scam. After all we are a Carbon based planet, with carbon units occupying portions the planet. Photosynthesis throws up a question when blaming a Gas for Warming that is not significant. As for your unwillingness to examine Windmills & Solar power I hope that in time you will understand my reservations particularly windmill farms. I use solar for a battery trickle system that works quite well. However I am reticent to add that to my home for numerous reasons like price, reliability, & place of origin. I believe the technology will improve & if we manufacture them in the US & I'm still alive I'll jump on board. The video posted by truthinbeer sums it up nicely regarding Climate Change as the #1 National Security issue of our time! I would have to agree with the Egyptians "Is Obama Insane?" "Either not trusted or Hated" that's a hell of a Legacy! If If I could counsel anyone who would listen I'd say, It is time for calm rational thought based on facts & logic not emotional reactions & division! The crisis cannot be the entire distraction without a logical plan toward a goal with an accomplished objective! Currently a lot of money has been spent on this cause & a lot is hidden cost of everything we purchase. Our economy can be much better instead of an illusion created by false narratives...
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Post by Green Hornet »

Tom, You are not the Lone Ranger when recognizing the govenrment system is Corrupt & Broken. I tend to think it has always been this way but of late worse then I have witnessed for 7 decades. The Term REFORM is to little & Revolution at this point seems too much! We need a trusted leader that will hopefully come to pass in this election. I would not like to settle for the lesser of two evils again only to see the Devil win. What gives me little hope is the fact that the political class has the audacity to even contemplate Hillary vs Jeb, Clinton Vs Bush again! Then again your point regrading the election process & a Republic that resembles Rome does make one fall to the dark side! "The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones." Anthony- Julius Caesar... Shakespeare
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Post by Green Hornet »

Apple's solar panels catch fire while using Carbon Offsets to claim 100% Green! The stench of Phony Hypocrisy is over powering! http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/27/apple ... a-centers/
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Brenton C
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Post by Brenton C »

I know the topic's been dead a while, but I thought the following comments by a credible scientist put some oft quoted statistics in less misleading context.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-wid ... -are-false

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Post by Mountain Doctor »

Interesting article.

Looking back at the harshest winter we have had in the Pacific Northwest since 1951, my skepticism of global warming is renewed.

Even if it was a real issue, I'm not convinced at all it is 'man caused'.

Even it it was, I'm even less convinced we could do anything about it.

Even if that was the case I'm still even less convinced it would be the right thing to do from an economic/political/social/national security point of view.

Also, I have no horse in this race. I'm a healthy 52 year old. I'm off the spaceship in about 30 years (more, God willing, and may they be good years), and I doubt I will lose my oxygen supply in that time frame.
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Post by Brenton C »

Hiya Doc, well I'm with you philosophically and chronologically, at a mere 53 years young.

That particular scientists overview illustrates how when the media gets hold of a story, or other groups vested in advancing a position, how skewed a presentation of the information comes to be "legitimized."

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Post by Andy Young »

I've written on this here in detail in the past, so this one will be short.

Having worked in science support for decades, I am fortunate to be able to get my information first-hand, directly from scientists that I know personally, without any filtering or bias by the media. I'm convinced that it's real, and that humans are a major factor in causing it.

As far as the current harsh winter goes, remember that part of overall long-term climate warming is greater swings in the weather; more extreme weather of all types. It's quite common to confuse weather with climate, but they are not the same thing.

Weather is the clothes that you're wearing today.
Climate is the clothes you have in your closet.

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Post by Mountain Doctor »

I agree with your excellent analogy, Andy.

With that said, If it would swing to warmer winters (as originally promised by pro-GW) I'm all for it.
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Post by TomD »

Warming for The Tri-Cities??

Purchase beach front property in Orlando Florida today.

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Post by captnkirk »

I still go back to the question of where are we on the normal temperature cycle. Over the 4 billion years this rock has been spinning around the sun how many cycles have there been. Now how much data have we collected, a couple of hundred years maybe. So my question is how much of whatever phase of the curve we are in is caused by man. I don't know ,a friend of mine doesn't know either and he is an Astro physicist studies origins of the universe type of stuff. His comments to me are that the data is inconclusive. I am not saying human action has no effect it is that to what degree are we affecting the change. This doesn't mean we should not do all we can to reduce our footprint. Evan has told me he not worried about the climate change, he is worried about the next big rock that hits us. The last time it wiped out most of the life on earth. So I will do what I can to be a good steward with out being over the top about it.
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