Learning how to assess an airplane

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J. Bartlett
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

Asa, Andy, and Andy:

Awesome input. Im learning a ton. So I struggle with this notion - at 815 lbs useful weight, even with only full mains (which reduces my flight time to ~3.5 hours), after me, my wife, and my kids get in, I pretty much only have enough room left for a couple cliff bars to stay under gross.

Since my plane will be based at either Birchwood or Merrill, my guess is I am going to have to fly longer legs to get to anywhere worth mentioning for hunting, requiring a higher fuel load. Am I crazy with that line of thinking? Does this mean that I need to plan stop overs after an hour or two in flight to re-fill up, adding time/money to any trip I take? If so, why even bother with the auxiliary tanks if I can never use them?

Or, do people flying around here regularly accept loads higher than max gross and just accept that risk? How do I hear about guys with M-7's taking themselves with two other dudes and gear into the back country when my numbers are showing that with just my wife and kids I have next to no room left for gear at all, even on a day trip?

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Andy Young
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Andy Young »

I can’t speak to what others are doing, but I always try to stay within gross weight limits. I have been known to take myself, two friends, full ski gear, and lots of winter camping/survival/rescue equipment into the Alaska range to land at 10,000 ft and go skiing. This is done within gross weight limits. But I have an M-6-235 that has an empty weight on skis of 1600 lbs, and I am based in Talkeetna, so I only need 2.5 hours of fuel to perform the mission, plus a bit for circling around checking things out, plus an hour of reserve. I weigh 175 lbs, and my friends are about 200 and 120.

You have several things working against you:

1. Your plane is on the heavy side
2. You seem to want to travel longer distances with a big load
3. You want to put four people and their gear in the plane (I don’t know your weights)

Few four-seat planes can actually carry four people with full fuel. There is usually a trade-off. I’ll often go long distances with all four tanks full (in fact all the way to Colorado and back from Alaska a few times a year) but when I do that, there are just one or two of us and gear in the plane.

Sometimes, if the load is bigger, I’ll have to put on less fuel, and stop more often to fill up. Other times, I am light so I can take as much fuel as I want. Yet other times, I am going into a short, rough, tricky spot, so I carry as little fuel as I can, so as to end up as light as possible.

It all depends on the mission; many of them involve trade-offs of some sort.

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

Andy:

The hard part about assessing this is, I don't know, what I don't know. For example, I don't know how far I will have to travel in order to find a few hunting spots - how long those strips will be - what the surrounding terrain is, etc. I really just don't want to be limited by my equipment. Through these exchanges I think I've accepted that the M-7 will not suffice for 4 people, and Im ok with that. 3 people is still plenty, realistically. But it sounds to me like even 3 people is a stretch.

815 lb useful load - (73 gal x 6 lbs) 438 lbs = 377 lb remaining.
I weigh 190 = 187 remaining
Wife weighs 130 = 57 remaining
2x kids weigh 50 = 7 lbs of gear???

If its not my wife and kids, one other dude puts me over gross with full fuel? How can that be on an aircraft that advertises being ready for 5x passengers? Even if I only put in full main tanks and leave aux empty that only gives me an extra 200 lbs and limits my range by half or more. It isn't making sense to me because I know these aircraft are extremely capable. Am I over thinking or does that simply mean Im looking at the wrong kind of airplane?

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Mog
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Mog »

If the tail flies…. But seriously, I have been equally disappointed in actual capabilities of the Mighty Maule. But they sure do work well for what they are rated to do. A Super Cub is a sweet airplane as well but it’s kinda slow compared to a Maule and cargo space is limited. What a Maule is, is a Cub sizedish airplane that carries a load and go’s reasonably fast.

Oh, and look at M4’s, they often have higher useful load due to their lower entry weight. But they are limited on gross to 2300lbs.

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cubnak
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by cubnak »

Just thought I’d throw in a few tidbits here, I have an m-7 with the universal wing and an IO540, fly here in Ak with my family of 4 (and a dog usually) and also use my plane some in a guiding operation to complement my PA18. First off I wouldn’t get so hooked up on the numbers, these planes are just amazing and I’ve been impressed every time I fly mine, especially with weight, they can handle some big loads! I can also tell you that there won’t be too many 3 adult passenger loads that will enjoy a long flight in a Maule, it’s pretty cramped for 3 adults, especially hunters. With my wife and 2 teenage average sized kids and a 60 lb dog it’s reasonably comfortable but even still I don’t make long flights cause not many kids (or wives) enjoy those sorts of trips. But they’re fast enough that in a couple hours you can cover a lot of ground and get to lots of cool places, and really in a couple hours flight time you can typically find fuel somewhere and top off again. But when it’s just me I can pig out on fuel, carry a few extra cans and get almost any place in the State I want to get to, a couple examples, flew the plane up from Bellingham WA to Birchwood airport in 11.5 hrs, fueled up in Ketchikan and landed Yakutat to drop a couple cans in but otherwise made the whole run in one long day. Just finished a flight yesterday where I put in 13.5 hrs over two days, covered about 1500 miles and topped off with fuel once and landed a second time to put in 5 cans, and landed back at birchwood with 1.5 hours fuel on board, you just can’t do that stuff in a cub. Then figure you can land at least 90% of the places a cub can land (when you learn how to handle one), you can’t do this with many Cessnas.
My plane hasn’t been really tweaked yet to get max performance (needs a diet like the one you’re looking at) and having flown with Issac and my brother who bought Issacs old plane and has really worked hard to lighten his up, my plane just doesn’t compete performance wise but is still plenty good to do a lot of amazing flying. I’ve got over 8,000 hrs flying in Ak in several different Bush planes and if I had to pick only one plane to fly (within reason of affordability and what you can do with it) I would pick my M7. Like you’ve seen in earlier posts there are some sacrifices you’ll have to make (like 3 adult passengers and gear) but you’ll have that with any plane. In my opinion I don’t think you’ll be unhappy with an M7 with the 235 and if you’re like most of the Alaskans I know that flies one (or M6 with bigger wings and the 235) you’ll just walk around with a big smile on your face like we do!
Ernie

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by andy »

I limit my MX-7-180 to pilot and 2 passengers plus a modest amount of cargo most of the time. I can't speak to the M-7-235B since I don't own one but due to the lower useful load, I'd say that it's the same situation but with better takeoff and climb performance.

I think the aux fuel tanks are an important option. They give you the flexibility to make really long trips without as many fuel stops if the load is light. They also give you the flexibility to add enough fuel for missions that require just a bit more than the mains without adding fuel stops. The range, speed and capacity are a lot better than something like a Super Cub although the Cub will outperform most Maules in STOL characteristics.

From what you've said I still think the M-7-235B or a somewhat lighter long wing M-6-235 with aux tanks is the best airplane for your requirements. Most of the remote AK lodges use something like a Turbo Otter or Turbo Beaver to haul big loads and hunting/fishing parties. They are extremely capable and extremely expensive airplanes to purchase and operate but I wouldn't take one into a 500' foot airstrip because of their weight. If money wasn't a limitation there's also the Pilatus PC-6 Porter, although they are no longer in production. I don't think you'd find one but the Maule M-7-420 with the Allison turbine would be an awesome airplane although still limited to 2500 lbs.
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TxAgfisher
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by TxAgfisher »

I'll be that guy and just say it... you need a 180/185/206 for your mission.
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Andy Young
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Andy Young »

Having flown 185s, 206s, Beavers, and Turbine Otters for a living, my observations are:

A 185, a 206, or a Beaver will carry the load, but they won’t do stuff as short as a Maule will. A 185 in the right hands gets close, but the 206 and the Beaver need at least 1000’ with a good load on board. Also, while a 206 is incredibly tough for a nose-wheel, the landing gear is still a limiting factor for true off-field stuff, depending on how rough a place you want to get into.

An Otter will certainly carry the load, and can do 500’ landing and takeoff, but it’s too big for many places. Besides, few can afford one of those for personal use.

I don’t have much experience around 180s. I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that they would be similar to the 185, but with bit less performance.
Last edited by Andy Young on Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TxAgfisher
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by TxAgfisher »

180's are good performers. If we are talking flying heavy/near gross I will take the 180 every day over a Maule. My '55 weighs around 1650 so comparable to a Maule but I have 3+ ft more wing and 265hp.

They aren't as much fun to fly though and you have to be proficient and really working at it to get it to do what a Maule can.
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J. Bartlett
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by J. Bartlett »

TJ: Valid - I do want to get behind the stick of both types and figure out which one my flying style better jives with. I wont want to be in a position where I can do what I want to do but feel like I am fighting my equipment all the time. I like synergizing with my airplanes... call me old fashioned.

Andy: Great insight. I was definitely sold on Beavers when I got brought into Kodiak on a lake with two buddies and all of our gear with zero issues - that was my starting point... until I discovered how expensive they were... that dream will have to wait until I win the lottery I think. Good insight on the aux tanks too - if nothing else it gives me the option to go further during such times that I will be riding solo or with only one passenger. STOL is important but only to the end that I can get my family into and out of where ever we go. Sounds like I might just need to open my mindset to the notion of taking multiple trips- which seems to be a product of this type of flying class. Ive looked into bigger things, but again, you bump up against their ability to get into the same types of places and price goes through the roof.

Ernie: Thanks for sharing your experience. Thats helpful. Those are the types of things I am hoping to do with the family, but was also hoping to bring ~250 lbs of gear/food for a 3-4 day trip with the family. Sounds like that is maybe possible so long as I have a 235B and I just choose my spot smartly (closer) so I can reduce fuel load? The other piece is that I am hoping that this will be my commuter vehicle to/from Fairbanks from Anchorage on weekends I am required to go work up there, in which case I will likely just be riding solo. So, 90% of the time, I understand, it can do what I need it to. Its just the 1-2 hunting trips a year I was also hoping to be able to facilitate with a buddy or two. Doable? The numbers don't seem to make me think so without multiple trips. Is that what your experience is as well?

KC: Haven't looked at the M4 but I have seen a couple of MX-7s that advertise a useful load of 1100 lbs... talking to folks it sounds like they can seldom get that much in their plane due to space and performance though since its only a 180 HP. Is it too much to ask for a 235+ HP with the room of an M-7 and a 1000 lb useful load??? Bearhawks look like they can do that... but because they're experimental I can't do anything commercial in them now (thanks FAA), so its been a complicated journey.

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Trevtt600 »

I'll put my 2 cents in.

I'm a fairly new Maule owner, but have owned 14 or so planes in my relatively few years on this earth. I purchased an M5-210C last September and have absolutely fallen in love with it. I have a 1050lbs useful load (empty is listed as 1450). It does have the 2500lbs gross weight increase (factory is 2300). The Continental IO-360 has tons of power and is relatively good on fuel. I operate out of a 900' strip on my property and have taken my family of 4, 36 gallons of fuel, as much stuff and we could stuff in the plane, with a DA of 3300', and it accomplished this just fine; I used about 750' (I figure I was about 2330lbs).

You may want to look for an M4 or M5 as it seems the useful load is pretty important to you. The 220 Franklin powered Maules are great performers as well, and it's a pretty light setup compared to the 540 powered Maules.

Anyways, good luck. I promise you... If you buy a Maule, you will not be disappointed. I didn't know what to expect as I haven't flown one before I purchased mine. But the more I fly it, the more it impresses me. I really wanted a 180, but I'm not so sure I need one or want one after owning the Maule for 9 months and 100 hours of flying her.
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Andy Young
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Andy Young »

250 pounds of gear and food for a 3-4 day camping trip for four people sounds like a lot. All depends on how you camp, I suppose. I’m used to small backpacking tents, dehydrated meals, and the like. If you’re using a big stand-up tent, folding chairs, coolers full of fresh food and meat, etc., that definitely creates a heavier load.

This creates another trade-off to consider: Simpler camping for being able to carry more fuel and go farther.

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Andy Young
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Andy Young »

Trevtt600 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:16 pm

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I noticed the Hodaka banner in your hangar! My first bike was a 1978 Hodaka 250 SL. It was a pig, but I had fun. I’m a sucker for obscure brands; I now own four Cagiva Elefants, a Royal Enfield, and a Madama.

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cubnak
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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by cubnak »

I have to agree with Trevor, the more I fly mine and the better I get with it the happier I am, I have the Oleo gear and have hopped back and forth with 31”s and 35”s and happy to fly either, 35”s slow me down about 5mph but I can land in some pretty rough stuff no problem, I fly quite a bit with a buddy that has a 185, he’s faster and hauls more but burns 6-7 gallons per hour more and I’m the one probing landing spots and often he passes on places I don’t find particularly challenging just too rough for his bird most of the time. As far as the missions you mentioned the answer is yes to all of them, the plane can handle it, whether your family or hunting buddies want to be crammed into the plane with a couple hundred pounds of gear is another question. Two seasons ago I took my kids out for a moose hunt and we had all the gear including coolers, totes, tents, heaters, all the pack frames, guns, hunting gear, etc. and loaded a half of an adult bull moose on the bone and took off on a 600’ sand bar with out a sweat, did a similar load with a whole caribou uphill into a 10mph wind on a ridgeline, both takeoffs were heavy, max gross or beyond and both times I was surprised at how easy it was. Something else to consider is that I think we’re less than a year from having a certified belly pod for the Maule which would be a game changer for packing stuff in and having the weight in a good cg. For the price you’re not going to beat a Maule in the certified world, at least for the mission you talk about doing which is similar to mine. If I could chip away at the weight to gain a touch better performance and clean it up with some fairings to pick a little speed I would call it the perfect backcountry Alaskan plane

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Re: Learning how to assess an airplane

Post by Trevtt600 »

Andy Young wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:32 pm
Trevtt600 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:16 pm

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I noticed the Hodaka banner in your hangar! My first bike was a 1978 Hodaka 250 SL. It was a pig, but I had fun. I’m a sucker for obscure brands; I now own four Cagiva Elefants, a Royal Enfield, and a Madama.
Hi Andy! I may have a Hodaka problem. I had 13 of them last year, but scaled back some. I have a restored Super Rat (in my family since new), 94 Wombat, and 92 Ace 100 (my wife's). I have a 1976 Wombat for restoration, and a 98 Super Rat. Currently working on a Steen minibike with a Hodaka engine.
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