Avionics Package

[wredick]

I wanted to upgrade my avionics to ADS-B in and out. Was looking at a Garmin 750 with my old 430 as radio # 2. I only have 8.25 inches in the stack, so I looked at the Avydine package. IFD 540 with the 440 backup. I still need around 10.25 inches to do that. How are other pilots handling this? One shop wanted to remote the transponder and audio panel and put the 430 clear over on the right hand side, which I wasn't too happy about. Ideas?

[andy]

I'm going to replace my KT 76A transponder with an Appareo ESG ADS-B transponder that has an integral WAAS GPS. My panel GPS is an older Apollo GX60 GPS/COM that is not WAAS capable. Replacing the GPS with a WAAS unit (required for ADS-B-Out) is the most expensive part of the change and I just can't afford to spend $10,000 swapping the Apollo GX60 for a Garmin GNS 430W. The Appareo ESG will cost me around $4,500 to purchase and install and no panel changes will be needed. It even uses the existing transponder antenna and I can plug in my Stratus II ADS-B-In receiver. The downside is that I won't be able to do WAAS IFR approaches, but I don't fly IFR frequently now. The only way that I could gain some space in my avionics stack is to remove the DME or KX 155 NAV/COMM. However, I'd like to leave them as a backup in case the GPS fails in IFR. The GX60 is older GPS technology and I sometimes get RAIM errors with it - probably since it's 8-channel and not a 12-channel GPS like most of the new ones.

If you already have a WAAS GPS, then you have more choices. A Garmin GNS 430W can interface with a Garmin GTX 33 ES ADS-B transponder. That's probably what I'd do if I had a 430W GPS.

I'm not inclined to go with a 978 MHz UAT since you can only use them in the USA. Someday, I'd like to fly to Alaska and although Canada doesn't currently require ADS-B, they will eventually and they will only support 1090 ES.

[snaproll]

We just went to ADS-B In/Out in another airplane I fly. Full boat Garmin solution.

For my Maule I'll look at the Garmin 345 with WAAS built-in (I don't have a WAAS unit in the Maule). I'll either use the ADS-B In from the transponder on ForeFlight or will buy a Stratus for the backup attitude capability.

I love flying with ADS-B out... lights up everybody around me and is more accurate than any TCAS I've flown.

[Henry L. Heaberlin]

Guys: A word to ponder. I had a GTX 330ES installed with a GNS 430W better than a year ago. A beautiful package in any machine but a Maule. After installing the equipment, the avionics shop "discovered" that the Garmin AML listing for the STC DOES NOT include the Maule as of last year. Therefore the ADSB "out" function could not be turned on. I would make sure that the Approved Model List includes the Maule now before spending money with Garmin. As of right now my shop says the Maule is not approved... I wish some one could prove them wrong. They are not willing to try a field approval. Interesting... A further thought, as of few months ago, the factory was not installing the GTX 330ES in new aircraft. Weird.... Henry

[gbarrier]

You just need another shop. The vast AML list for the KT74 left the Maules out also. Have talked to several shops that said no sweat, will do field approval when I'm ready. I'm holding out because King said they would make a note and get it on the next revision

[Henry L. Heaberlin]

Gbarrier: I too am waiting for a revised AML from Garmin. They promised inclusion of the Maules this spring (2016). I am not holding my breath... Henry

[DirtDobber]

If you want to go the GTN route, a 650 will also control a remote transponder. So you could get the new Garmin 345 ADS-B in/out transponder and have it remotely mounted. An audio panel, a GTN 650 and your 430 will all fit in the 8.25" vertical space that you have to work with. And you'd have a waaay nice Maule panel.

[gbarrier]

My guess is you will have the same problem. Probably because of the small number of these airplanes out there we have been overlooked on most of the Approved Models List from most. An engineer at King asked "is that a homebuilt" when I rattled his cage. It will eventually catch up as we harass the manufacturers. Meanwhile just choose a shop who is not afraid of a field approval. Down side is that they will charge you a little more to do the field approval than if they can just reference the STC on the 337.

[gbarrier]

Talked to King again this morning. While Peregrine has the STC for ADS-B on the KT74 and Trig units they are just puppets for the avionics manufacturers and add to the list as dictated by them. Talked to the same nice rep at Bendix King that I did a Month or two ago. His name is Wayne and as you go through the phone tree you have to choose safety as a selection. that's where transponders are. He asked "is that a fabric airplane?". He said that he didn't think that they had addressed fabric aircraft yet. I quickly pointed out that the PA20 and 22's were listed on the AML. He promised to look into it and get back to me. I would urge those considering the Trigg to do the same with them and depending on what I hear back perhaps those considering the King might need to rattle that cage some more. I'll let you know.

A field approval gets the job done but that's more dollars out of my pocket and I can sit here on the phone for nothing. Anybody else playing this game.

[andy]

Right on, Gary. Maules are often an after-thought of avionics manufacturers to add to the STC's approved model list. I've only done one field approval - that was when I had the Apollo GX60 GPS/COMM installed in 2000. It wasn't too painful a process, but now with ADS-B, the FAA has really tightened up on field approvals for ADS-B or WAAS GPS installations. Far better to have your Maule model on the approved model list in the STC. Here's a link to the FAA's online STC database:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enFrameSet
It's not the easiest thing to search, but it's do-able. Usually, the avionics manufacturer gets a fancy letter from the FAA with an approved model list that the manufacturer provides online since it helps them sell the avionics. This is one of the open questions that I have about the Appareo ESG once it gets certified. I may end up going with the Garmin GTX 345 with the optional WAAS GPS module if they are first to add the MX-7-180 to their approved model list. ForeFlight Mobile on my iPad is also able to integrate with the GTX 345 for FIS and TIS display, which is a big plus.

[gbarrier]

Don't mind being the red headed stepchild as long as I eventually get called to the dinner table.

[aero101]

Gbarrier: I too am waiting for a revised AML from Garmin. They promised inclusion of the Maules this spring (2016). I am not holding my breath... Henry

I'd be looking for another avionics shop. A field approval is very easy and FAA actually has guidance to help, so it's very simple process for anyone with any experience. If you bought the units from this shop, it is their responsibility and if they can't handle, maybe they shouldn't be doing this kind of work. I'd also offer them back anything you bought and demand a full refund, to include any labor. If they can't handle this, maybe your local friendly faa inspector should be notified of circumstances and they could motivate them one way or another. This circumstance was addressed by FAA several years ago as they knew there was going to be problems with AML's not addressing all makes and models or airplanes.. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on Garmin to make revisions as that could take quite sometime!! It really is not the manufacturer's responsibility except to maybe get the Maule on an AML at sometime in future and they're really not too concerned about that as field approval is easy, is part of installation process, and should be priced into the installation. And actually the installation should not have been done until they had a field approval in hand as it's an ILLEGAL installation as it now stands. Maybe they don't have an IA on staff, but if they're an approved avionics shop, it can be done without an IA... Unless there's more to story it's a no brainer!![/b] This link will provide you FAA specifics on what's allowed for field approval. So long as it's an approved system on another STC=== There are also some FAA contacts listed for more specific info...

http://www.seaerospace.com/documents/FA ... proval.pdf

This is latest FAA take on Field Approvals published 1-28-2015

5. Discussion. The FAA and industry are working diligently to approve ADS-B Out avionics through aircraft type certificates (TC) and Supplemental Type Certificates (STC), including approved model list (AML) STCs. However, these certifications will not provide a means of approval for all existing aircraft given the significant number and different types of aircraft affected by the mandate. As a result, field approval of ADS-B Out avionics is permitted under the conditions specified by the Aviation Safety (AVS) Policy Memo dated October 12, 2012 (available at http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... ob-Aid.pdf). To prepare for the challenging task that lies ahead, an AFT has been established at HQ to provide technical support. The AFT is led by the Aircraft Maintenance Division (AFS-300) and staffed with subject matter experts (SME) from AFS, Aircraft Certification Service (AIR), and Air Traffic Organization (ATO). The AFT serves as the primary focal point for coordination of activities associated with ADS-B Out equipage. The primary mission of the AFT is to foster consistency in the interpretation and application of related regulations, policy, and guidance to achieve and sustain a high level of efficiency within our organization during ADS-B Out equipage. In that regard, the AFT has also been tasked with identifying and mitigating any shortfalls in policy, guidance, and training that would impede our ability to effectively support equipage. Mitigation of these shortfalls includes implementation of new or revised policy and guidance, as well as broad communication of issues, challenges, and solutions to the FAA and industry.
6. Actions. Inspectors, engineers, and designees responsible for data approval of avionics should familiarize themselves with the material referenced in this notice and contact the AFT Lead, James Marks, via phone at (202) 267-1707 or email to james.marks@faa.gov for assistance or questions related to ADS-B Out mandate equipage.
7. References (current editions).

[BamaMaule]

FWIW, I am planning on the Appareo solution. I have talked to two avionics shops about the installation in my M5 and they both assured me that the 337 would not be an issue at all. Both were aware that the Maule was not on the STC list. Am I missing something?

[TomD]

I looked at the Appareo and it seems only to have ADB-B "IN" no "OUT"

The FAA really does not seem to care if you have IN but the requirement is for OUT so other people can see you and OUT is the part that costs a bunch.

I am still waiting for a TSO or PMA lower cost solution.

The mfg's are just now getting geared up for the huge market that has been mandated and the price wars should start soon.

[BamaMaule]

TomD you might want to look again. The Appareo Stratus ESG is an ADS-B out solution. It is a transponder with a built in WAAS gps to provide the out portion. It can use the encoder I already have in my plane (I have a King KT76A but not sure of the encoder model) You can direct wire the "in" portion to a portable stratus unit if you like. This will enhance the portable stratus reception due to the external antenna.